[Seal]

I had a text from a pal in Europe, yes I do have a few believe it or not, about an expensive repair issue that he is currently trying to get his head around with his Chinese EV. He has had it for just 20 months and done around 26000 miles if my conversion from kilometres to miles is correct. He’s just been told that he needs to have all four rotors replaced due to rust! So that’s rotors, pads front and rear as well as the EPB. I didn’t get the price because he was sobbing too loudly but it did prompt me to check out buying the relevant parts and going to his local to help him fit everything. This particular model has been around for a few years now, 2 at least, and yet not one of my normal suppliers is able to supply me with the parts, other than a set of brake pads, £21.78 for the front so not expensive. So the question to myself and anyone else reading this is why no parts? Surely if a manufacturer sets up dealer’s around the country they must also import spares to service and maintain all the sales!
My biggest concern is if there are no spares to be had what would happen if you broke down and were a member of the RAC ! Could they get you back on the road? If the answer is yes then where do they get the spares ? The dealers of course and if they have a monopoly on the parts then they can charge whatever they like for them and is that why the vehicles are being sold so cheaply from new ! I wonder if my pal is still sobbing into his mug of coffee ! I think I would be.

[Rolebama]

I remember the early days of Datsun Cherrys and 120s. Small cars but with a price tag of £80 for a basic service kit.
TBH, I would be surprised if any electrical or electronic components were available for public purchase. My son-in-law is a Master Tech with BMW, but all electric vehicles have to go to Park Lane for any work.

[Seal]

I get electric tech being restricted access, don’t always agree that it should be but I do get it. However to be unable to obtain disc brakes easily is a worry for any buyer, to have a complete set breakdown due to rust after just fifteen thousand miles or so is very concerning and to be quoted €3000 plus to replace them at a main agent is utterly ridiculous in my opinion. The vehicle costs around €60 thousand brand new €30 thousand of that is probably the battery so a very cheap car for all the tech. Oh well my pal is still sobbing into his coffee and looking for a loan to cover the repair when if he was doing it himself it shouldn’t cost more than 400 pounds in total and is not a technical repair. Life’s funny like that nowadays. 😉

[olduser]

Rust on disks can be a problem on EV's especially if the driver is a smooth (good) driver as the brakes get very little work. So far I have not noticed anything suggesting the makeup of the disks being changed to prevent rusting.

I vaguely remember, seeing on a Wheeler Dealer program a machine to skim discs while still mounted on the hub they ran on. The machine had a motor to drive the hub and adjustable cutters to take a light cut off the disk surfaces.

Of course, a good machine shop could do them in a lathe.
I assume disks still have runout but the question would be is it in the hub or in the disk.
Anyway, a good lathe operator could install the disks so the face was running true.

[NMNeil]

Could be worse.
https://telegrafi.com/en/mercedes-re...ts-to-replace/

[Rolebama]

When I was an engineering apprentice we had a surface grinder. We also had a rotating attachment for it. It didn't take long after its installation before we were grinding car disks during our lunch breaks for friends and relatives. That was in 1966. As to the one that does them on the car, there was only one place I knew of that had such a machine. I don't think they got enough work for it to justify the cost. When they sold up, the new owner scrapped the machine.

[Seal]

Originally Posted by NMNeil

Could be worse.
https://telegrafi.com/en/mercedes-re...ts-to-replace/

Very interesting article, I gave up on Mercs a good while ago, three S Classes (500 down to 350) all suffered the same litany of failures/faults from AC issues to Infotainment issues along with mechanical failures.
The most annoying was a steering wheel where the leather just disintegrated within five months of delivery and which Mercedes refused to repair/replace under warranty! At that point I walked away from the mark and went over to Range Rover’s which was an even bigger disaster, electrical issues on the day I collected it, leading me to two Audi A8s, which I loved, both V8 petrol units. One was faultless and I was incredibly happy with it but the second spent more time in the dealership than on the road. Since I’ve tried BMW 7s trim just used to fall off randomly, less than impressed, a Cadillac, loved it but constantly required replacement parts, but very easy to obtain, and more time under it than in it. And a 300M, same issues as the Cadillac but smiles for miles worth it. I now have yet another two new vehicles, hybrid/petrol and full EV which, touch wood, the hybrid has to date been faultless, the full EV I will reserve judgement on because the car is great but the infrastructure for EV charging in the UK is at best sketchy and at worst downright awful and expensive so I am limited to journeys where I can either recharge when I get there, a relatives or hotel, or where I can get back without having to recharge. This despite having a published range of 400+ (utter nonsense) more like 270 in the winter and 320ish in the summer.

[Seal]

@olduser

I agree and if my pal was in the UK I wouldn’t hesitate to do a skim job but he lives abroad in a Scandinavian country where winters are harsh. I suspect that could be the issue but of course he has grown up with Volvos and Saab's which were built like tanks. This EV like all modern cars is made of Coke cans and composite materials. Due to regenerative technology I think the brakes take a hammering and I don’t think he is taking that into consideration, I also don’t believe he realises or accepts just how much he uses the phenomenal acceleration of the vehicle and as we all know ‘what goes up has to come down’ and that sometimes involves heavy braking! He may need to adjust his driving style to avoid high maintenance costs but I don’t think he is ready or wants to hear that just at the moment. 😂

[Seal]

@Rolebama

I remember the Ford Granada Cosworth, indeed owned one, had very similar issues. Not rust but warping and I was forever having the discs skimmed and eventually replaced. It was heat, pure and simple, that caused the warping and as an owner you learned to live with it along with it eating timing belts unless you replaced them a few thousand miles earlier than recommended. I suppose, as drivers, we will all have to expect all this new technology to come at a cost and that cost will be heavy until it’s mastered by engineers. Regenerative braking is very heavy on both pads and discs and the ability for these EVs to go from zero to 100 in under 4 secs and stop in not much longer has to put massive amounts of pressure on the brakes! Drivers, including my mate, will have to change and adapt their driving techniques to suit or pay the price. 🤭

[Drivingforfun]

The weight of the EV also will play a part! I imagine in the old days there were plenty of heavy vehicles, and plenty of fast vehicles, both of which needed good brakes... but heavy and fast vehicles were few and far between!!

[Seal]

@Drivingforfun Agreed and no doubt at all that what you are saying is accurate but there’s fast and then there’s proper fast! We now have family salons and SUVs that can perform and in the case of EVs, outperform what used to be thought of as super cars.
Super cars have been elevated to Hyper car standards and the difference, I think, is that whilst the real super/hyper cars are fitted with carbon fibre brake pads and ceramic brake discs the fast family EVs are still fitting plain old steel discs and standard pads. Race pads would be better but have the drawback of being utterly useless until enough heat has been generated to make them work fully. And that is another worry because young inexperienced drivers are now in a position where they pass their test and are getting into these very fast family EVs which are easily capable of nought to 100mph in five seconds or less! Remember when we had ‘hot hatches’ that could do nought to 60mph in 7-9 seconds? They became known as boy racers. Now almost every EV has shaved 4 seconds off of that time. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for super fast and fast cars, all I would like to see is far better brakes fitted to complement that available speed on the family ones. As an aside, I had the opportunity to test drive a new EV Hyper Car that hits 300mph but only costs £100,000 on the road. Now that’s fast. 😉

[olduser]

Regenerative braking takes the load off the braking system.
Driving an EV in full regen mode makes very little use of the brakes unless you are the last of the late brakers.

Most new drivers of EV's have to learn a new respect for the accelerator, (there are an infinite number of positions between fully open or closed) otherwise they will pay a heavy price in tyres due to the high lowdown torque.

The heavy weight of the batteries, in terms of braking, is usually cancelled out by the regeneration.

To get anywhere near the manufacturers mileage on EV's, drivers need to become Mr Smooth, and plan ahead while driving, I am not saying you will achieve the manufacturers test data mileage but you will get nearer, any passengers will enjoy the journey, and the driver will arrive at journeys end less stressed.

[Seal]

@olduser Well all I can say in response to your comment about ‘regen braking’ is there must be something wrong with mine because when it’s dark and I remove my foot from the accelerator and the regen kicks in, on comes the rear brake lights without my going anywhere near the brake pedal! Unless that’s just to warn anyone behind? Along with that I feel the seat belt tightening, which I had interpreted as the vehicle braking/slowing down! Obviously I’ve been in error in that assumption ! I’ll not worry about it now that you have explained and I’m sure you are correct and I thank you for assistance. 😉

[Beelzebub]

Originally Posted by Seal

@olduser Well all I can say in response to your comment about ‘regen braking’ is there must be something wrong with mine because when it’s dark and I remove my foot from the accelerator and the regen kicks in, on comes the rear brake lights without my going anywhere near the brake pedal! Unless that’s just to warn anyone behind? Along with that I feel the seat belt tightening, which I had interpreted as the vehicle braking/slowing down! Obviously I’ve been in error in that assumption ! I’ll not worry about it now that you have explained and I’m sure you are correct and I thank you for assistance. 😉

I have a Kia hybrid. According to Kia ""The brake lights in your EV may activate when significant deceleration occurs due to regenerative braking, ensuring safety for vehicles behind you. However, it can depend on the make and model of your EV."

AIUI some other makers put a figure on "significant" , e.g. 10%

FWIW I think this is something that needs to standardised and made mandatory.

[Seal]

@Beelzebub Interesting 🤔 I’m not sure what constitutes ‘significant deceleration’ with my particular EV if honest but removing my foot from the accelerator and the vehicle slowing down as in ‘coasting to a halt’ seems to be a little excessive to be described as significant deceleration but as I say, I’m working in the dark with this topic. I can only relate what I see and feel whilst driving and what the dials are informing me about what the vehicle is doing at that moment in time. I obviously need to investigate further and will pass on all the information I’m being offered here along with the suggestions to both the manufacturer and my dealer and see if they can advise on what is and isn’t normal for their vehicles so that I can fully understand how the system works. 👍🏽

[olduser]

The amount of regen is usually adjustable. (may be referred to as Eco Mode) With full regen the car slows very quickly (depends to some degree on the charge level in the battery) to the extent that unless you intend to stop you would not take your foot off the accelerator, whilst at the minimum end of the regen range the car would slowdown at a similar rate to a modern ICE car.

I have driven a Nissan, setup for their 'one pedal driving', it works but it takes time to lose the ICE habits, and learn to be careful with the go pedal.

[Rolebama]

I am sure I have followed some with auto brake lights. First few times I thought it was dodgy switches. I am not sure if it's a good idea or not though, as I wonder how many people have followed these cars only to have them actually brake, and be taken unawares.

[olduser]

I have seen the same Rolebama, there needs to be an agreed standard for what rate of deacceleration should the brake lights come on but all the light means on an ICE car is, I have my foot on the brake.

[NMNeil]

Our local Ford dealership is proudly advertising that they now had the Mustang EV in stock. Not my first choice but I thought I'd give it a look.
I was surprised that to me it wasn't a Mustang as I knew them but just a run of the mill SUV, which for me would be better.
Of course a salesman appeared out of nowhere, all teeth and handshakes telling me how great they were, fast, reliable long range etc.
I told the salesman I was interested and I'd be back after I did some research. It took a while because the salesman was doing everything except physically drag me into the sales office and I also refused to give him my phone number or e-mail.
So I came home and did some research then went back.
The salesman saw me coming and almost sprinted to greet me, and I followed him into the sale office where he had dollar signs in his eyes.
It didn't last long as I asked if all the recalls had been performed, and received a blank look.
"What recalls" he asked. "These" I said handing him a copy of this;
https://www.cars.com/research/ford-m...ach_e/recalls/
"I don't know", he said. I asked him to check
Off he went to the sales manager, who looked at the printout of the recalls. The manager came to the sales office and assured me that if there were any outstanding recalls they would be fixed before I took delivery.
I pointed out that if there are safety recalls outstanding it's not only illegal to sell them but illegal to even advertise them for sale.
More blank looks so I got up and walked out, and surprisingly nobody tried to stop me, a rarity for a car dealership.

[Seal]

Originally Posted by NMNeil

Our local Ford dealership is proudly advertising that they now had the Mustang EV in stock. Not my first choice but I thought I'd give it a look.
I was surprised that to me it wasn't a Mustang as I knew them but just a run of the mill SUV, which for me would be better.
Of course a salesman appeared out of nowhere, all teeth and handshakes telling me how great they were, fast, reliable long range etc.
I told the salesman I was interested and I'd be back after I did some research. It took a while because the salesman was doing everything except physically drag me into the sales office and I also refused to give him my phone number or e-mail.
So I came home and did some research then went back.
The salesman saw me coming and almost sprinted to greet me, and I followed him into the sale office where he had dollar signs in his eyes.
It didn't last long as I asked if all the recalls had been performed, and received a blank look.
"What recalls" he asked. "These" I said handing him a copy of this;
https://www.cars.com/research/ford-m...ach_e/recalls/
"I don't know", he said. I asked him to check
Off he went to the sales manager, who looked at the printout of the recalls. The manager came to the sales office and assured me that if there were any outstanding recalls they would be fixed before I took delivery.
I pointed out that if there are safety recalls outstanding it's not only illegal to sell them but illegal to even advertise them for sale.
More blank looks so I got up and walked out, and surprisingly nobody tried to stop me, a rarity for a car dealership.

Well the upside to that dealership story, and it’s not much of an upside, is that they actually tried to sell you something 🤭

I recently wanted to buy a Lexus 300 self charging hybrid, so I popped into my local dealership to have a good look around one, I admit I was dressed in very muddy boots and trousers having just completed a dog walk in heavy rain across fields so not ideal attire.

The reception lady cared not a jot, offered me a hot drink and assured me a sales representative would be with me very shortly. I sat drinking my coffee and waited, for some considerable time. Eventually this guy came over to me and asked what he could do for me? It all went downhill from there.
Could I look at the 300 ! We don’t have any second hand ones at the moment. That’s good because I don’t want a used one. Could I look at the one in the showroom? No, that one is sold. Could I look at a used one and have a test drive? No we don’t have any. Yes you do I can see three on the lot! They are locked. At that point I told him exactly what he could do with his Lexus and departed. But my point really is dealers don’t seem to want to sell a car, they certainly don’t want to sell one for cash. The whole system is designed for lease agreements or contract hire. I tried three other supposedly high end brands, Merc - Audi - Genesis none were the least bit interested in selling me a car and certainly not when dressed as I was. Am I happy with the vehicle I now have? Yes very, but I don’t believe I would have been 20k happier if I had bought any of the other makes. And I certainly don’t need attitude from a Lexus salesman who walks around in loafers with no socks on, drainpipe trousers, a baggy T-shirt and short jacket with the sleeves rolled up looking like he just stepped out of a scene from Miami Vice. When I bought this current vehicle the dealer couldn’t have been more helpful but then they actually wanted to sell a car! They allowed me to test drive the car, when I said I needed more time they arranged for me to have a vehicle for two days, they were keen for me to trade in my vehicle and they were polite at every encounter! And that is why they are exceeding their sales targets by leaps and bounds, well that and undercutting other manufacturers by substantial amounts. Good on em is what I say.

[NMNeil]

@Seal If that was your experience from the sales department imagine how bad the service department might be?
And a word of advice; never ever say you are paying cash. Lead them on a dance telling them you will be financing the car, but insist they give you the 'out the door price' in writing.
Only then tell them you will be paying cash, or as a friend of mine did take out the finance, with all the associated discounts the dealership will offer thinking they will make that up from the finance agreement and make one payment for the full amount. Just make sure there's no early repayment penalty in the finance agreement (illegal here if the term is over 60 months).😎

[Seal]

@NMNeil
Good advise but to be honest I just wanted him to know I could afford the car and stop looking down his nose at me. I had already had a chat with a couple of builders who were picking up a car from service and they were saying they were less than impressed with the experience. Funny how things change, when I bought my first and only LS400 the sale and service experience was superb but then Lexus were a new brand and were keen to build a great reputation! No longer do they need to do that it appears but as I said I got a new car that was some 20k less than the make I bought and with a quality of build I was very impressed with. Would I have been 20k happier just to have a Lexus badge? No not really, and I buy a vehicle for me not for what the neighbours may think. 😉

[NMNeil]

Unfortunately Toyota/Lexus now have a terrible reputation for reliability and build quality.
They used to be one of the best makes, but the same can be said for many once good makes which are now built to a price, not to a standard.

[Seal]

Originally Posted by Seal

I had a text from a pal in Europe, yes I do have a few believe it or not, about an expensive repair issue that he is currently trying to get his head around with his Chinese EV. He has had it for just 20 months and done around 26000 miles if my conversion from kilometres to miles is correct. He’s just been told that he needs to have all four rotors replaced due to rust! So that’s rotors, pads front and rear as well as the EPB. I didn’t get the price because he was sobbing too loudly but it did prompt me to check out buying the relevant parts and going to his local to help him fit everything. This particular model has been around for a few years now, 2 at least, and yet not one of my normal suppliers is able to supply me with the parts, other than a set of brake pads, £21.78 for the front so not expensive. So the question to myself and anyone else reading this is why no parts? Surely if a manufacturer sets up dealer’s around the country they must also import spares to service and maintain all the sales!
My biggest concern is if there are no spares to be had what would happen if you broke down and were a member of the RAC ! Could they get you back on the road? If the answer is yes then where do they get the spares ? The dealers of course and if they have a monopoly on the parts then they can charge whatever they like for them and is that why the vehicles are being sold so cheaply from new ! I wonder if my pal is still sobbing into his mug of coffee ! I think I would be.

Okay I’ve spent a considerable amount of time finding out exactly what needed to be repaired and it’s not really the rotors. It’s the section of the regenerative brakes that had worn out due to, as best as I could ascertain, excessive heat generated by the regenerative system! I’ve spoken to a number of tech guys who work for the big manufacturers and they all say the same thing and I’m using the least technical explanation possible because it’s what I understand. It may not be exactly as it should be described but I lost the will to live half way through. Here goes - The regen creates a great deal of heat within the process of putting kinetic energy back into the battery system when breaking, that puts a great deal of stress on the regular breaking system which is made of, as we know, regular metals, as are the bearings and even silicone bushes can be susceptible to excessive heat, which can cause fatigue and early failure. Now I know that is unbelievably simplistic as far as an explanation goes but as I said, I lost the will to live. I’m an old fashioned guy who likes his cars to be as God intended, big, loud and in yer face and not silent, whinny and so technically advanced that I don’t fully understand them! But the man at MClaren forgave me.