[olduser]

Traffic lights can trap or confuse motorists because they have some conditional states.

Thinking about this - would no Amber with Red be better?
Or - Amber with count down?
Or - Countdown starting on Green to end on Amber?

As these are difficult to visualise I cobbled up a demo in Scratch.*

It shows Normal lights but with Red and Green set at 15 secs for demonstration, Amber is running at about the average for the UK.

Clicking the Green flag starts the demo as Normal traffic lights.
Clicking the Normal button will change the lights to one of the variations, this button works sequential, the lights will run to the end of the running cycle before changing to the new cycle.

I hope it works OK for you!
https://scratch.mit.edu/projects/1219209179/fullscreen/

What do you think, are there any sequences, if any, that you think would help?
I think with the Green + Amber count down we could truly say Amber means stop, no if's and no but's.


*Scratch is a computer programming language designed for children by MIT. It can be down loaded from the Scratch website free or you can sign in and develop and store your programs on their web site. Of course via the website members can swap ideas and help each other.
Program instructions are presented as blocks to be fitted together, and can be used to create games or whatever.

[Drivingforfun]

By conditional states do you mean the adaptive lights that can change early or skip a junction's "go" entirely if there's no traffic?

I get caught foul sometimes, approaching a light that goes red prematurely because there's no other cars near it, but I think it's outweighed by the times when it happens in my favour

I'm not sure how / if a timer would work with those

[olduser]

Originally Posted by Drivingforfun

By conditional states do you mean the adaptive lights that can change early or skip a junction's "go" entirely if there's no traffic?

I get caught foul sometimes, approaching a light that goes red prematurely because there's no other cars near it, but I think it's outweighed by the times when it happens in my favour

I'm not sure how / if a timer would work with those

No, any adaptive functions would still apply, I am just playing with the light sequence primarily to avoid the vagueness around Amber (should I stop or not?)

I doubt there are any traffic lights left that use simple timers, I think they have computers in place of timers or can be reprogramed anyway.

Did you try the link - I am not sure if will work on a mobile phone, as far as I know it should work on any computer?

Just a thought - there is no risk to your machine, the program is run in the Scratch website and you are just looking at the changing picture over the internet, nothing is actually loaded onto your computer, it's all contained in your web browser.

[Drivingforfun]

It works on my Mac 😊 did you make it, it's quite clever

"No amber after red" seems like a way of simplifying. Many seem to treat amber as "go" anyway, and I've had people getting impatient when I wait for green. I wonder if it'd make things even more aggressive, though, and encourage people to keep their engines on and in gear → emissions

I treat amber as "handbrake off, put in gear" by which time it's usually changed to green and time to go... I think if it went straight to green I'd anxiously leave it in 1st, footbrake on, so as not to wind up the person behind

[Rolebama]

I don't know which ones, but some countries have countdown to changes already, and I do think it's a good idea.
As to adopting them here, I can see it now. Initial estimate £X, then 2yrs later, estimate revised to 2 x £X, and the notion still waiting for reports from various committees. Five tears later, the go-ahead is given at a cost of 4 x £X. 2yrs later contractor goes back to Govt to ask for more cash. Ten years after go-ahead given, project scrapped because light phasing is being affected by TV signals, radio signals and Mrs Smith's microwave. (Insert any other reasons here, but no leaves on the line or wrong kind of snow allowed.) After another 5yrs have passed, the whole system is reverted because of cost of upkeep.

[olduser]

Originally Posted by Drivingforfun

It works on my Mac 😊 did you make it, it's quite clever

"No amber after red" seems like a way of simplifying. Many seem to treat amber as "go" anyway, and I've had people getting impatient when I wait for green. I wonder if it'd make things even more aggressive, though, and encourage people to keep their engines on and in gear → emissions

I treat amber as "handbrake off, put in gear" by which time it's usually changed to green and time to go... I think if it went straight to green I'd anxiously leave it in 1st, footbrake on, so as not to wind up the person behind

Whilst like you I am a diehard and wait out of gear but getting into gear do's not take long, unless you think about it but generally there are other clues to being near the end of the Red time.
Observing other cars at lights, the majority are sitting in gear holding the clutch out! Not good for the clutch thrust bearing bearing though.

As I mentioned above, it was written using Scratch a computer programming language designed to teach children basic programming but is great for little jobs like this demo.

If you are curious, use the link to get the demo, on the upper right of the demo screen there is small square with four inward pointing arrows click on that, then again on the right find the See inside button. (Purple)

You are now in the editing environment the demo was created in.
The work area, will be showing the code blocks for the small Green light called 2Green.
Lower right shows a row of little pictures (Sprites) whichever one you click on will show in the work area.
Upper Left shows three tabs marked Code, Costume, Sound, selecting Costume shifts to the place where that sprite was drawn - This sprite has costumes showing Green off, and Green on, and Green with a numbers. (see down the left side of the work area)

You can do this with any or all of the sprites giving you an idea of how it all works, the main controller part of the demo is in sprite 4.

You can use Scratch to create programs where you are now and save them onto their website (you have to sign in) or you can download the Scratch editor onto your machine and play/work on your own.

[olduser]

Originally Posted by Rolebama

I don't know which ones, but some countries have countdown to changes already, and I do think it's a good idea.
As to adopting them here, I can see it now. Initial estimate £X, then 2yrs later, estimate revised to 2 x £X, and the notion still waiting for reports from various committees. Five tears later, the go-ahead is given at a cost of 4 x £X. 2yrs later contractor goes back to Govt to ask for more cash. Ten years after go-ahead given, project scrapped because light phasing is being affected by TV signals, radio signals and Mrs Smith's microwave. (Insert any other reasons here, but no leaves on the line or wrong kind of snow allowed.) After another 5yrs have passed, the whole system is reverted because of cost of upkeep.

Sad but true...

[TC1474]

There is a reason we have the light sequence that we do, and its quite simple..

It is there for the benefit of people who are colour blind (such as my son in law).

They know that when they see the single light on top (Red) showing they have to stop. When it is the top and middle (Red and amber together) they can prepare to move off and the bottom light (green) means that they may proceed as and when it is safe to do so.

In the reverse order, the single middle amber tells them which direction the lights are going so they can plan accordingly.

Consideration has been given in the past to changing the configuration, and TRL at Crowthorne have done a lot of research, but it was decided to leave well alone as it has worked very well over all these years, and 90% of drivers know that a single amber is a bookable stop unless it would be unsafe to stop for whatever reason which is then the drivers duty to prove.

[olduser]

Thanks for your comments, and nice to see you found a way back.

I thought about colour blind, and thought as the position of the lights has not changed they should not be affected.

The aim was to accept that most motorists interpret Red Amber as Go. (unless there is a police car about) When drivers do try to use Red Amber correctly this can causes some confusion, and frustration.

The count down, is intended to make the rule for Amber less ambiguous, it becomes a firm Amber means stop.

As traffic lights now have digital controls, and are more and more using a matrix of LEDS for the lights it is technically simpler to show numbers on the lights, than it would have been in the past.

[TC1474]

Originally Posted by olduser

Thanks for your comments, and nice to see you found a way back.

I thought about colour blind, and thought as the position of the lights has not changed they should not be affected.

The aim was to accept that most motorists interpret Red Amber as Go. (unless there is a police car about) When drivers do try to use Red Amber correctly this can causes some confusion, and frustration.

The count down, is intended to make the rule for Amber less ambiguous, it becomes a firm Amber means stop.

As traffic lights now have digital controls, and are more and more using a matrix of LEDS for the lights it is technically simpler to show numbers on the lights, than it would have been in the past.

I hear what you are saying, but there is also the aspect of giving motorists advanced warning of the lights changing on the approach thereby giving them time to react, slow down smoothly and in time rather than slamming on the brakes (which to be fair does still happen now)

It is also used for evidential purposes of drivers jumping red lights as the timing of the amber lights being displayed is crucial to determining how much time a driver had to decide whether to continue through the lights or stop.

There is some science and thought behind the system we have

[olduser]

Originally Posted by TC1474

I hear what you are saying, but there is also the aspect of giving motorists advanced warning of the lights changing on the approach thereby giving them time to react, slow down smoothly and in time rather than slamming on the brakes (which to be fair does still happen now)

It is also used for evidential purposes of drivers jumping red lights as the timing of the amber lights being displayed is crucial to determining how much time a driver had to decide whether to continue through the lights or stop.

There is some science and thought behind the system we have

With the technology available at the time, they did a good job, displaying a count down with old lights would have been very complex, and worse prone to failure.

But the Amber before Red with the option to go through if it is not safe to stop, is an invitation to risk it.

Amber and Red was a help with pre synchromesh gear boxes but not these days. At present, Amber/Red is interpreted as go and Green has become keep going.

Most people get into a car to go, and any excuse can, and is used to go, even if there is a risk in doing so!

I think, all road signals, and signs should be absolute, in the minds of most drivers Amber is not absolute, it's a maybe, with count down it can become an absolute.
In an extreme situation, the option to run through the Amber is still there but if caught the culprit is going to have to plead mitigating circumstances to get away with it. As far as enforcing is concerned, run through the Amber and your booked, the if's and buts move into court.

When, on the demo, I tried countdown from 10 at the end of Green I felt it made Amber superfluous, and that would mean a radical change (colour blind in mind) whereas counting from Green through into Amber, I thought, felt natural.

Counting in Amber alone feels a bit too short to avoid slammed on brakes.

Anyway, it was just a thought.

[olduser]

One of the quirks of writing computer programs is knowing when to stop refining and polishing.
For anyone that was interested in the demo, and how it was created, the final version is at the link below. I think this version is less cluttered.

https://scratch.mit.edu/projects/1233185688/fullscreen

As mentioned previously, clicking on the small white square with arrows pointing inwards, gets you into the editor.
The central area of the editor shows the program (coloured blocks) I have added some notes to show what each assembly of blocks is doing. (like Rem statements in Basic)

Lower right of the editor shows each Sprite (little pictures) clicking on any one will load the program that runs that Sprite into the work area the editor.

The Red light for the large traffic lights controls the sequence of all the lights by passing control to other parts of the program as required, once the new part has completed it's task, control returns to wherever the control was passed from.

Upper left shows three tabs, Code, Costume, and Sound, clicking on Costume hides the Code showing the Sprite Editor, whilst Sound allows editing of any sounds used with that Sprite.