Distractions

  • Drivingforfun's Avatar
    I saw this on the RAC app and thought it could be interesting to the forum


    https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/mot...es-of-distrac/


    To me, it makes perfect sense that the distractions people are less afraid of cause more problems in practise. It doesn’t mean people wrongly assess danger, quite the opposite. Put another way, I’d suggest most (certainly not all) people who cause a crash mis-assessed risk and probably felt too safe.


    I don’t know anyone who considers shaving something to do with driving?? 😳 I wonder if they had to put that in with applying makeup, as a token, for gender equality reasons.
  • 27 Replies

  • Nick's Avatar
    Community Manager
    Definitely some interest distractions in this report for people. I used to work with quite a few people that would use an electric shaver on the drive to the office - I guess for some people, whilst shaving and applying make-up are not driving related activities, they are activities that they do whilst driving in certain situations. I would assume they would mainly do it whilst at traffic lights etc, but I guess you never know.
    Thanks,
    Nick


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  • Drivingforfun's Avatar
    @Nick sorry, "something to do with driving" in my OP should say "something to do while driving"

    I had an image in my head of someone using a cutthroat razor and going over a speed bump 😂
  • Rolebama's Avatar
    I don't think that list is complete. I have twice been rear-ended by people, both were the divorced Dad with the kids for the weekend. Once on the M23 because he was distracted by the kids fighting on the back seat. The second in Ealing because one of the kids hit him on the back of the head with a wooden toy. Impact speeds were very low on both occasions so no injuries or insurance claims involved. When I mentioned these incidents to friends at the time, they all had similar stories, although some assumed this was the cause.
    Another distraction I am aware of during my time doing recovery work, was dogs loose in the car. Sudden barking, scrambling on the driver's head, being sick, etc, all leading to distraction, and all leading to collisions of some form. Only one serious injury because of hitting a motorcyclist.
    I am sure there are many more missing on that list.
  • olduser's Avatar
    First thought, the most human thing to do after a crash is to find someone or something to blame rather than admit, I got it wrong.
    The sad thing about that is, they soon begin to believe their excuse, and the opportunity for them to learn has gone, so they will probably do that again.

    As Rolebama mentions, who would start a car with a loose dog in it, certainly not someone who is interested in not harming others, the dog or themselves?
    Children, rows/fights = stop and sort them out + anymore and we go back home.
    Actually I was lucky I think, our kids travelled in child car seats (suitably adjusted) from birth, at that age they went to sleep, and the habit persisted to about 10 or 11 years old.
    Trouble tended to happen if the car was full with one of ours and the rest their friends.
    One irate mother told me Tommy would not be coming again because I would not let him stand up to see where we were going, and I had made him put a seatbelt on. (I had seat belts before they were a legal requirement)

    What, 'things' do you have in a car that you may drop while driving?

    Eating or drinking = stop.
    A story; once in Norfolk, on a narrow road, in a snake of holiday traffic, speed ranging from 5 to 30 MPH, car in front driver starts eating while driving, line of cars stops of course this far down the snake it becomes a sharp stop, car in front brakes late and puts car into hedge, driver now hanging out of door coughing and choking, so help him out no blood apply Heimlich manoeuvre and out pops part of a sandwich, move my car to give him room to back out of hedge he just has a cracked bumper so drivable, snake starts to move, driver in front carry's on eating sandwich ???
  • Drivingforfun's Avatar
    @olduser

    I've said before but I've often noticed non-fault drivers more interested in maintaining their innocence than taking control. If someone pulls out in front of me, if I brake it turns the whole thing into a non-event. Why are some people so keen to instead beep their horn or in some cases let the crash happen. Taking control isn't implicitly taking responsibility!

    You make a good point though...even when people do accept fault often they'll blame something outside of their control, or more accurately, something they decided to allowed to fall outside of their control
  • olduser's Avatar
    @olduser

    I've said before but I've often noticed non-fault drivers more interested in maintaining their innocence than taking control. If someone pulls out in front of me, if I brake it turns the whole thing into a non-event. Why are some people so keen to instead beep their horn or in some cases let the crash happen. Taking control isn't implicitly taking responsibility!

    You make a good point though...even when people do accept fault often they'll blame something outside of their control, or more accurately, something they decided to allowed to fall outside of their control

    I think you make a major point in your second paragraph, the driver is the only one in control of the car.
    If granny can persuade the driver to let little doggy woggy ride on her knee then the driver is not mature enough yet to drive.

    The first paragraph has me wondering, when is the driver not responsible for their car?
    Certainly whenever they are in it they should be in control, in congestion in a town centre or early hours on an empty motorway, the driver should be in full control, people will step off pavements, animals will wander onto motorways, other vehicles can have total electrical failure and be stuck on the road.

    I think, this is separate from blame or fault or whatever, that is arguing about blame, and who pays for the damage, what I find sad about that aspect is if blame is contested in court very good in depth investigations are made, reports are presented to court, after which they end up getting filed. So the driving public is never able to learn from them.

    Public broadcasters should be made to review cases using the reports in viewing hours.
    There appears to be an appetite for screen camera footage, and cops chasing cars etc.

    As to the why didn't they ... question?
    There is something called (I think) the, 'Target Syndrome', briefly, if we are aware we are going to crash we tend to focus on that and unconsciously steer at the crash.
    As far as I know it takes a lot of training to stop this, every day drivers don't have, or survive enough crashes, to get sufficient experience to get over this syndrome.

    Oh this is getting very long, time to stop for the time being.
    If the thread continues and anyone is interested I can add more of, 'Driving as olduser see's it'.
    Last edited by olduser; 25-06-25 at 19:25.
  • NMNeil's Avatar
    So the UK, just like the US has a real problem with distracted driving, but the UK and the US are happy to have drivers distracted if it means money.
    https://www.midpointled.com/motorway-billboards/
    Maybe we both need a government department that can join the dots.
  • Drivingforfun's Avatar
    @olduser I don't think you go on, and always find you have interesting perspectives 👍

    Reading your post, I think I'm as guilty as anyone else. A few weeks ago I had my first bump, I was at fault and immediately accepted so - I felt more sorry for the teenager I hit who I've probably made insurance unaffordable for next year. However my hiccup was due to a condition flare-up. I know my obligation to manage my conditions (part of being given by doctors the okay to drive) and it's my responsibility to judge my fitness to drive. I made a mistake and will learn from it... but I wonder whether I was subconsciously trying to blame it on health so as to preserve my claim to being a considerate driver 🤔
  • olduser's Avatar
    @olduser I don't think you go on, and always find you have interesting perspectives 👍

    Reading your post, I think I'm as guilty as anyone else. A few weeks ago I had my first bump, I was at fault and immediately accepted so - I felt more sorry for the teenager I hit who I've probably made insurance unaffordable for next year. However my hiccup was due to a condition flare-up. I know my obligation to manage my conditions (part of being given by doctors the okay to drive) and it's my responsibility to judge my fitness to drive. I made a mistake and will learn from it... but I wonder whether I was subconsciously trying to blame it on health so as to preserve my claim to being a considerate driver 🤔

    Hi Drivingforfun, we all make mistakes, and you are trying/hoping to learn from it, don't beat yourself up concentrate on, learning from it.

    I was taught early on in driving to learn from near misses and minor shunts.
    Ask yourself the question, "What can I do differently to avoid that happening again?"
    You will see this ties in with the post above about responsibility, 'what can I do', not 'what can they do?'
    The outcome can range from, keep your specs on when picking your nose and driving 🤨, to not assuming the other driver will wait, or approach hazards with more care, only you can know what was in your mind just before the event, and what needs to change to keep you out of trouble.

    I find this works in two ways, I learn to make the changes required, and I can see others making the mistake I had been doing, so I react earlier, and don't get involved in their drama.

    The emphasis on I is just logic; I cannot drive the other cars, I can only drive the one I am in, me and my car is the only way I can influence future driving events.

    Another, 'game' I think I picked up from a driving manual.
    Have counters handy, and every time you get into a situation where you are relying on others to do the right thing, drop one into the passenger side footwell.
    The object being to get a lower score each trip.

    Thanks for the comment.
    Last edited by olduser; 27-06-25 at 12:48.
  • NMNeil's Avatar
    The wife has been driving longer than she will admit (Her drivers license is in Latin) and she still sometimes parks by sound 😁
  • Rolebama's Avatar
    NMNNeill, I seem to remember some years ago on one of those long straight, flat desert roads, it was thought that too many drivers were being 'mesmerised' by the lack of change in the roadside. The powers-that-be decided to have painted 45gallon oil drums located along the roadside to help drivers stay alert. Maybe a good idea in theory, but it caused more collisions because drivers were so distracted by them.
    This was quoted as the reason all our motorways after the M1 were deliberately built with curves to give drivers something to think about, and stay alert.
    Last edited by Rolebama; 30-06-25 at 13:29. Reason: Addition
  • olduser's Avatar
    My geological engineers tell me there are three reasons for bends in UK's motorways, avoiding or minimising geological trouble, avoiding Sir Snotty's estate, and getting around towns and cities.
  • Drivingforfun's Avatar
    @olduser

    The counter thing is actually something I'd done since I'd started to drive, albeit not physically.

    I wonder if an interesting game would be, if you took a counter back out each time you had to compensate for somebody else?

    I still make the odd mistake now, but definitely far fewer. That's just the ones I notice... I think there would be a net deficit of counters as we perhaps tend to notice others' mistakes more often than our own.
  • olduser's Avatar
    @olduser

    The counter thing is actually something I'd done since I'd started to drive, albeit not physically.

    I wonder if an interesting game would be, if you took a counter back out each time you had to compensate for somebody else?

    I still make the odd mistake now, but definitely far fewer. That's just the ones I notice... I think there would be a net deficit of counters as we perhaps tend to notice others' mistakes more often than our own.

    On reading your post, the thought that springs to mind is I must have given the wrong impression in my, "What can I do differently to avoid that happening again?" post.
    The idea is to learn to see, 'tight' (tight as in no room or tight as in clenching the bum) situations developing and not get involved, simply delay arriving or less often drive around it.

    In a sense, I am saying there is nothing I can do about the way others drive (way above my pay grade) but I can change the way I drive.
    The more I observe me, and the changes I need to make the more I can see these mistakes in others giving me more time to plan how to avoid the resultant trouble.
    I am accepting, unless I am attentive I will get into difficulties, who caused the difficulties is, in a way, irrelevant I am asking why am I getting involved, how do I not get involved next time?

    Having made that point, in conversation I would normally continue with the concept of, 'unobtrusive' driving, completing a journey with the minimum of disturbance to others.

    Perhaps that's for another session.
  • olduser's Avatar
    To follow on from the above (Things I can do)

    Unobtrusive Driving, as I call it - Causing the minimum of inconvenience to others, on or off the road, on my journey.

    The mirrors are useful tool for this.
    I set my mirrors so they are in my peripheral vision where this is possible.
    In some cars this may not be possible and auxiliary mirrors may be required but the idea is to be able to get a picture of what is happening behind, and around without actually looking at the mirrors.

    This belies the driving test thing of looking at mirrors, of course you still can.

    Once setup, you are able to see what effect you are having on those around and still be looking ahead, now you can be aware all the time not just when you choose to look, what happened when you passed through, did you cause chaos or were they undisturbed?

    But (there's always a but) we have to make sure other drivers can understand our intentions.

    The best we can do, go back to basics, the Highway Code, if we are intending to turn left move over to the left of your lane, turning right move over to the right, (how many times do we see cars turning left swing right first or visa versa?) of course we signal, and make sure we are not trapping anyone (cyclists) as we move over and turn.

    The common reply is usually, "But if I'm signalling people should know where I am going!"
    And the answer is, "Sometimes".

    Just like when we talk to people we get a lot of information from body language, (a forced laugh shows because the body language is wrong) on the road we use the, 'body language' of vehicles to estimate, what next?
    A well driven car doe's not really need indicators but they serve as confirmation.

    In my experience, indicators, taken on their own, mean nothing more than, something might happen, but add the appropriate car body language, and we have confirmation.

    Possible meaning of indicators:

    Left or Right - left them on from last turn, or turning Left or Right.
    Right - it's raining tried to put WW on, or turning Right.
    Left - tried to turn WW off, or turning Left, or temporally stopped at roadside, or just cut in in front of you.
    None - may not be working.
    With appropriate car body language we manage work out the other drivers intentions.

    We use brake lights to signal the brakes are on.
    When observing out on the road I have to assume , 'not many people know that'. (Michal Cain claims he never said that but then, 'not many people know that'
    😉)
    In body language braking would show as nose down tail up but designers are getting better at anti dive suspension system so this is more subtle now than on older cars, acceleration is nose up tail down.

    Apart from emergency braking, it's a help to others to give a quick flash of brake lights then start braking to slow. It also helps in long braking to lift off and reapply, it turns brake lights off then back on, just in case the follower has not noticed yet. (and the brakes like it)

    Headlights - a quick flash, I think, should be interpreted as, 'go on then but at your own peril.'
    You must deicide if it is safe.

    A long flash (the death ray) - generally means get out of my f****** way d*** head and is a substitute for a 30 sec burst of 20mm cannon fire or worse.

    Horne - the intention is they should be used as a warning, sort of, 'I am coming, and I think you are in danger' but that requires planning ahead.
    Today horns tends to mean any one of several options:
    I am crashing into you.
    Expressing panic.
    Acoustic death ray as above.
    Hello I am in my car.
    You fool!




    Last edited by olduser; 04-07-25 at 14:44.
  • Rolebama's Avatar
    @olduser Taking your death ray idea a little further:
    I was at a motoring seminar when I suggested that cars should be made of an egg-shell like material, and that they should be equipped with explosives at each corner. In the event of a collision, both cars would be vaporized, there would be no debris, and everyone would be able to continue using the road. Obviously this was a tongue-in-cheek comment, but I was amazed at the furore it caused. I reckon it was roughly a 50/50 split between those who agreed with the principle, and those who opposed.
    I would point out that the attendees were management representatives from the emergency services and council highways depts. Arguments raged on through the lunch break and into the afternoon session to the point that the organizers sent us all packing for the rest of the day, and there was to be no mention for the next three days of the seminar.
  • olduser's Avatar
    I remember reading somewhere about things you must never joke about one item on the list was driving.

    Yet, it is well known that humour, helps new knowledge stick, or coaxes people into looking at entrenched opinions from a different starting point, and perhaps, arriving at a different conclusion.

    I have found statements like, "Very few if any drivers set off intending to kill someone or have a crash." don't go down well, in gatherings supposedly talking seriously about driving, in fact talking about, 'crashes', as apposed to. 'accidents' causes much discomfort they prefer accident.

    I think the problem is, accident suggests that no one is responsible, so there is nothing to worry about then.
    Whereas crash suggests someone caused it, we must find out who, so they can be punished, once punishment has been awarded we assume the problem goes' away but how or why should it?
    Last edited by olduser; 06-07-25 at 12:52.
  • NMNeil's Avatar
    @olduser We use the term 'collision' which covers both accidents and crashes.
  • TC1474's Avatar
    @olduser
    Do not get me started on the use of indicators, it is one of my pet hates and as a crash investigator people are surprised when I tell them how many crashes are caused by the incorrect use of signals.

    The DSA teach new drivers that they must signal for everything so it becomes automated and second nature, which in turn means that drivers become lazy and give a signal because "That is what they were told to do on their test"

    So pull off from the kerb, signal.
    Go past a stationary vehicle, signal,
    Moving back to the driving lane on a Motorway or Duel carriageway, signal.
    Overtaking, signal
    Exiting a roundabout, give a left hand exit signal.

    The question is why?

    As per the Highway code definition, a signal is a signal of intent.
    I intend to turn left
    I intend to move to the left.
    I intend to move to the left and stop.
    I intend to turn right
    I intend to move to the right.

    It is not a signal of achievement or what they are doing at that moment, which is why at a higher level the rule is to allow a minimum of 4 flashes so other drivers are given time to see and react accordingly.

    How many times have you seen a driver give a cursory 1 flash as if that is sufficient or they are half way through the manoeuvre when they decide to give the signal by which time it is too late.

    Look how many indicate as the complete an overtake on an A class road. What side f the road do we drive on? The left, so why do people indicate to return to where they rightfully belong, given that the reason they are overtaking is because they are travelling faster than the vehicles they have just passed.. This also applies for 90% of cases on the Motorway, but there are/can be exceptions to the rule in this respect

    When dealing with a regular roundabout, look how many signal to take the 2nd or straight ahead exit.

    If the lump of concrete was not in place, what would that junction be? It would be a crossroads. What is the signal for continuing straight ahead at a crossroads?

    When turn right 3rd exit at a roundabout you are taught to give a left hand exit signal once you have passed the last exit prior to the one you want. What is the point?

    If you have given a right signal, traffic ahead and behind can see which way you are going. Traffic from the 2nd exit will and are obliged to afford you priority and traffic emerging from the 3rd exit don't care because they are going to merge behind you.

    As you are about to leave or exit the roundabout, give a left hand signal and in 99% of cases you have exited before the 2nd flash, however I have lost count of the number of crashes I have dealt with in this situation where just beyond the exit is a junction on the left, a driver emerging from the junction has seen the signal and thought it was turning left into the same junction and has pulled out into the path of the indicating vehicle as it accelerates.

    On larger roundabouts, sure an exit signal may be required, but I am talking about the regular sized roundabouts.

    I bet there are some people here who deal with a roundabout with only 2 exits. Straight ahead and a right turn, so no left hand exit at all. I lose count of the number of people who signal left despite the fact that they are continuing on the main road and when you question them why they did it and /or explain it I get the standard "Oh yeah, that all makes sense"

    Is there anyone to benefit from the signal you are about to give? Coming home in the early hours of the morning (and I have seen this in my road which is a cul de sac) 2am in the morning and on goes the signal to turn into their driveway. I bet the local tom cat must really appreciate the advanced warning.

    Look how many signal when they are required to turn onto a one way street. They can only go one way, signs and road markings tell everyone that you can only go one way but still they signal.

    This is what we in the trade call lazy driving because instead of observing and thinking about their driving they go onto automatic pilot and think that if they signal ad hoc everything will be fine.

    The reality is that give the wrong or incorrect signal at the wrong time and in the event of a crash you could be held liable or partially liable even if not directly involved but your actions were deemed contributory.

    Incorrect or improper signals can also result in a prosecution for careless driving f it causes confusion or potential danger to other road users (more common than you might think)

    So the key to good signals id not to drive by the numbers as you are required to do for the L test, but "Consider" whether an indicator is appropriate or even required.

    Something like 40% of signals currently given are superfluous and/or incorrect.

    Think about where, when and why you are signalling will result in the signals you give having much more authority and meaning and thereby creating a larger bubble of safety around you.

    I get many drivers who say "My indicator was on"

    In many cases this is not the case and as a forensic vehicle examiner I can prove if it was on or not, but in the same vein, even if flashing, you do not relinquish liability.

    When I do the theory sessions for the local advanced group I devote a whole session to the use of signals so as you may have gathered I have only just started to scrape the tip of the iceberg, but I hope you get the drift of what I am getting at.

    I could go on and on and on 😉
  • olduser's Avatar
    I wholeheartedly agree TC1474 but this assumes the driver is thinking, and planning ahead.
    Yet the laws, rules, signs, modern cars with driver aids, the many gallons of paint on the roads, and the obsession with, 'keeping traffic flowing', all contrive to encourage drivers into a thoughtless reactionary style of driving.
    But no matter how much effort is expended, it is impossible to cover all eventualities.

    The Highway code manages to be a good foundation to driving.

    Added to that lot, when things (inevitably) go wrong, we are preoccupied with blame, and punishment, rather than correction - understanding what went wrong, and educating the drivers involved.

    The approach or series of games offered by olduser, are sneaky in a sense because they all require the player to think about, 'their' driving, to learn from near misses, (a valuable teaching aid) and think how not to be involved next time, lifting their gaze from the car in front to the road ahead, and around, to create that 'bubble of safety'. (with apologies for pinching that phrase from TC1474 but it doe's aptly sum up what the driver should be trying to achieve)

    Another driver maybe did something stupid or unexpected but why did I get involved, why did I not see it coming, why was I too close to escape?

    Once a driver starts to think, things like appropriate signalling will start to develop.

    As TC1474 says, this could go on for ever.
    Last edited by olduser; 07-07-25 at 12:02.
  • Beelzebub's Avatar
    @olduser
    Do not get me started on the use of indicators, it is one of my pet hates and as a crash investigator people are surprised when I tell them how many crashes are caused by the incorrect use of signals.

    The DSA teach new drivers that they must signal for everything so it becomes automated and second nature, which in turn means that drivers become lazy and give a signal because "That is what they were told to do on their test"
    Things may have changed in the decade since I retired, though I doubt it. It certainly was not the case when I was instructing. It was probably as you describe when I passed my test in the 60s, but that's lost in the mists of time!

    The DVSA (DSA were replaced years ago) insist that pupils are taught not to give unnecessary signals, and faults are recorded on test if they do so.

    This is supported by both the Highway Code and Driving - The Essential Skills.

    In particular, no signal when moving off, unless someone would benefit.

    No signal when overtaking stationary vehicles in normal circumstances.
  • TC1474's Avatar
    Things may have changed in the decade since I retired, though I doubt it. It certainly was not the case when I was instructing. It was probably as you describe when I passed my test in the 60s, but that's lost in the mists of time!

    The DVSA (DSA were replaced years ago) insist that pupils are taught not to give unnecessary signals, and faults are recorded on test if they do so.

    This is supported by both the Highway Code and Driving - The Essential Skills.

    In particular, no signal when moving off, unless someone would benefit.

    No signal when overtaking stationary vehicles in normal circumstances.

    It must vary from area to area then as my Brother in Law is an ADI and I have picked him up on this and their instruction is to signal for everything and anything.

    I have been to Cardington on various courses in the past few years and I have raised the issue and I just get a "What does it matter" type reaction.
  • olduser's Avatar
    @olduser We use the term 'collision' which covers both accidents and crashes.

    I have argued but just as a layperson, in my years of driving, I have never seen an accident, all could be accounted for but it does depend on the definition of accident used.

    When it comes to motoring in the UK, accident was used so the incident could be quickly cleared away (swept under the carpet) then we can all get on with playing the motoring game.
  • Beelzebub's Avatar
    It must vary from area to area then as my Brother in Law is an ADI and I have picked him up on this and their instruction is to signal for everything and anything.
    But you've told us before that he's not a very good ADI!
  • TC1474's Avatar
    But you've told us before that he's not a very good ADI!

    No he isn't, you are right, but he is not the only AD I know and many have told me the same thing.
  • Rolebama's Avatar
    I have a friend who 'never' indicates to change lanes. He bought a new car a few months back, and I saw him driving on the A40 a couple of cars ahead of me. He indicated each time he changed lanes. I met up with him a little later, and in conversation mentioned it. He scowled and said he does now indicate because if he doesn't, the car tells him off.
    FWIW: I have noticed a lot of drivers do the one flash of indicators on the M25. Maybe for the same reason?