[shawnrobinson]

With all the talk about the UK’s commitment to net-zero and banning the sale of new petrol and diesel cars by 2030, do you think we’re moving toward cities where EVs will be the only cars allowed? Some places like London are already heavily pushing for cleaner air with ULEZ zones, but how feasible is it to imagine cities like Manchester or Birmingham being entirely EV-based?


How do you feel about this? Would it be a smooth transition or are we underestimating the challenges? And what do we need to see in terms of charging infrastructure, government support, and consumer buy-in for this to actually work?


Interested to hear your thoughts, especially if you live in one of these cities or know people who have made the switch!

[Drivingforfun]

I can kind of see this more than I can see the nationwide transition

I'm sceptical but of no firm opinion (due to ignorance) on whether EVs are any good globally but in cities it sounds good... I don't know if I'm representative but when I take my car to a city it's mostly to get in and out, I'll spend most of the day on foot, and I like the idea of cleaner air TBH

Not to mention when cars are bound to the city most of the EV problems like range aren't of relevance. The one thing is more terraced houses and flats in the city, you can spend 50 million on a house in London and still not get a driveway to park on

[Nick]

Good question @shawnrobinson - and welcome to the RAC Community by the way!

My opinion is that we're a little way off from an infrastructure as yet, and I'm not sure that sales of EVs in this country are quite yet at a point where we see enough on the roads as yet - although they are becoming noticeably more around.

From another viewpoint, it's probably an easy thing to do, right? Surely it's just a decision that gets made and then implemented. The knock-on effect to things like deliveries, tradespeople working in city centres will have an impact though. Although lots of the large courier/delivery companies have electric fleets now to some extent.

There's plenty of places making this sort of impact across Europe and the world now with places like Oslo and Stockholm leading the way in Europe.

What are your thoughts?

[Rolebama]

I do not believe there is any real merit in ULEZ zones. If there was a serious attempt to clean the air in our cities, 'offending' vehicles would be banned.

[Drivingforfun]

Originally Posted by Rolebama

I do not believe there is any real merit in ULEZ zones. If there was a serious attempt to clean the air in our cities, 'offending' vehicles would be banned.

I was under the assumption that the OP was talking about a ban, but I'd agree in general, I've always had a bit of an issue with "sin taxes". Why not let us do any bad thing for a proportional tax

I don't agree that the "crimes" these taxes are imposed on are victimless (consider alcohol/tobacco duty and the argument you're only harming yourself)

Perhaps there would be a point in such taxes if the money was ring-fenced to be used for undoing the damage caused by the "sin"

[olduser]

Changing to electric cars, so far government started well by having a cut off date for sales then they gave into manufacturers and extended the time on the grounds that sales had slowed down.

The reason for the slowing of car sales, in my opinion, was more to do with the effects of inflation and several years of austerity, than electric vehicles.
Government should have ignored the motor industry lobby, they are guilty of loading the price of EV's on the grounds of, 'if it's green we can charge more', they would have been driven to producing EV's at a lower cost.

Trying to look at it realistically, EV's should last much much longer than ICE vehicles so the trend in sales should be downwards. Though, I am surprised at issues thrown up on the Nissan Leaf forum (mostly USA contributors) but clonking driveshafts and worn out suspension long before the battery pack needs replacing?
OK driveshaft get loaded in both directions on EV's, the suspension problems look as though the suspension was not beefed up to match the greater weight of the vehicle.
Perhaps, the problem is the Leaf was a ICE car adapted to be an EV.

Charging gets to be less of a problem as EV range improves but cars ought to be able to cover say a 12 hr working day before charging, not in a lab but on the real roads, before the charging bogey is truly dead.
What is needed is secure charging places to discourage vandalism and/or secure garaging equipped for overnight charging.

All of the above would enable a sufficient mass of EV's to the point that ICE's are driven by the quirky folk who generally like playing with oily bits, they will spend most of their time driving around trying to find fuel!
We might even have to have rules about carrying fuel on public transport.

[NMNeil]

Originally Posted by Rolebama

I do not believe there is any real merit in ULEZ zones. If there was a serious attempt to clean the air in our cities, 'offending' vehicles would be banned.

It's ridiculous that all you have to do is pay a 'bribe' and the powers that be will look the other way to your polluting car or van. Defeats the whole object.

[NMNeil]

Governments don't much seem to care what fuel the car uses, they want them out of cities altogether.
https://www.gbnews.com/lifestyle/car...car-ban-london
https://www.timeout.com/news/this-eu...streets-032525

[Rolebama]

The Govt gleans, and relies on, a large pot of money from fuel duty, and the VAT. I am not really sure there is a real anti-pollution effort going on.
As for recouping the lost money if we all went electric, it would probably be by increasing costs of electricity.
The Peugeot diesel I owned from 2010 to 2015, ran quite happily on cooking oil. Around 49p a litre in most supermarkets. Seemingly overnight it went up to £1.49 a litre, same as diesel at the time. Now it appears to be over £2. Yet hardly anyone can use it as a replacement for car fuel now, and I believe it is just greed keeping it at that price.
The knock-on effect of the rise in price of electricity, or however it is decided to recoup lost taxes will almost certainly affect everybody. And when the next big thing comes along...

[olduser]

I think the civil serpents are keen on a road usage charge to replace fuel, and vehicle tax.
I read somewhere that they feel there should be a factor in this tax related to road repairs, which it is thought would price HGV off the road, certainly off motorways.

[Rolebama]

I think the whole idea of road tax is a joke. It has been charged relevant to hp, engine size and emissions. I think a 'sensible' idea would be to pay per mile. Providing this is charged at a 'sensible' rate.
Unfortunately, sensible and mention of our relevant govt dept in the same sentence is a bit of an oxymoron.

[Lily]

We’re not ready… yet. Will we be by 2035? Probably. Hopefully. Maybe. Let’s say yes.


One big challenge is home charging, especially in cities like London or Manchester where most people live in flats or terraced houses. No driveways means no home chargers, which means these folks will be relying on public chargers.


That said, I used to live in a new-build apartment and it had about 10 EV chargers installed from day one. Same with places like the Battersea shopping centre. So at least for new buildings, this is starting to become the norm.


Then there's the grid. Remember how we used to joke we were going to end up witn no power when everyone put the kettle on at halftime? Now imagine the same, but with car batteries. We're going to need a serious power-up.


And sure, there’ll be resistance. We grew up in the age of petrol. It's part of the culture. But hey, I remember when the first Iphone came out and I said "nobody is buying a phone bigger than a Nokia 3310, c'mooonm and no buttons? Pff", so maybe don’t listen to me. 🤣

Anyway. Does anyone here actually drive an EV? Or know someone who does?
Because personally, I don’t have any Tesla-driving friends. I'm too broke for that kind of social circle. 😅

[olduser]

Originally Posted by Lily

We’re not ready… yet. Will we be by 2035? Probably. Hopefully. Maybe. Let’s say yes.


One big challenge is home charging, especially in cities like London or Manchester where most people live in flats or terraced houses. No driveways means no home chargers, which means these folks will be relying on public chargers.


That said, I used to live in a new-build apartment and it had about 10 EV chargers installed from day one. Same with places like the Battersea shopping centre. So at least for new buildings, this is starting to become the norm.


Then there's the grid. Remember how we used to joke we were going to end up witn no power when everyone put the kettle on at halftime? Now imagine the same, but with car batteries. We're going to need a serious power-up.


And sure, there’ll be resistance. We grew up in the age of petrol. It's part of the culture. But hey, I remember when the first Iphone came out and I said "nobody is buying a phone bigger than a Nokia 3310, c'mooonm and no buttons? Pff", so maybe don’t listen to me. 🤣

Anyway. Does anyone here actually drive an EV? Or know someone who does?
Because personally, I don’t have any Tesla-driving friends. I'm too broke for that kind of social circle. 😅

I ran a Nissan Leaf but at that stage I was only shopping, and local runs out for fresh air or a look at the sea for my wife (she had Parkinson's).

The leaf was 3 yrs old when I bought it but still showed full battery capacity.
The previous owner, (the dealer invited me to ring him!) had used it for 25 mile commute each day, and family life at weekends, he said he got through a set of front tyres within 2 months from new but then he learned how to drive it! He had charged from a 13 Amp socket at home or work, and no troubles from the car.

When I got the car, the dealer had really done a full service, fitted new tyres all round, and there was a certificate from a battery servicing company certifying the battery as full capacity, whatever that meant.
Showroom clean inside, with a spray of, 'essence of new car'.

Initially, I had two problems to get over, I wanted to change gear, and the reverse/forward selector was not instinctive; for forward pull it back, and for reverse push it forward.
The lowdown torque was not a problem; I am always progressive with the accelerator but it was fun, now-and-again, when I got fed-up with traffic light drag racers.

Mrs olduser's first ride out had a brief flash of drama; it had been a freezing night (heaters in front and rear screens took about 2 mins to melt ice clear) we had not got very far down the road but Mrs did not look happy, "what's up Mrs?" "I'm a bit cold." "Heaters on." "Oh well should be warm soon."
Keen to show off the new car, I turned the electric seat heating on but said nothing.
Next junction the better half looking very miserable and pipes up, "Better turn back, I have wet the seat", I had started to wonder if I had!
When I told her about the seats, smiles all round but instructions never to turn them on again.
The cabin heater was a heat pump, and delivered heat almost instantaneously - it could be arranged through a timer to come on towards the end of charging to prewarm the car, in effect, from the mains.

Overall impression; a very civilised way to travel, OK range was limiting (Nissan claimed 120 actual practical 80 miles) but on most electric cars that has been solved, the extra weight of the batteries took the nervousness out of a small car ride.

There was a pedestrian warning noise up to 45 MPH (I couldn't here it but my wife could), from about 30 MPH on there was just tyre noise gradually building up then wind noise started about 50 but nothing worse than normal.

Low rolling resistance tyres appeared to work well, steering well balanced, light when parking but heavier at higher speed.

Eco mode - single pedal driving - once I got used to it, worked well but (there is always a but) the rear brakes did not get enough action to keep them rust free.

The camera's did not impress, designed to lure you into trouble.

I am mystified by the 12 Volt battery life problem the car is reputed to have, everything electrical in the car is run from the 12 V battery apart from the traction of course.

The 12 V battery was charged as the car was charged, and topped up while running, from the traction batteries.
I gave the 12 V battery a de-sulphating, and rebalancing charge the night I got it, because it was showing differing cell voltages with a small load, by morning the cells were even again, 6 months later I did the same again.
As far as I could tell, the 12 V battery was the original.

Car charging - the car had a charging stop-start timer with facilities for 7 days built in, we had an Economy Seven (E7) supply (cheap off peek electricity 7 hrs per night).
I set all seven days to charge in the economy time on the car 's timer.
I found I could charge it in 7 hrs one night per week.
I waited until the battery showed around 10% then plugged the charger in, by morning it would be showing 80 - 85% just about right for battery life.
After 6 months I arranged a 100% charge, to rebalance the cells but first job in the morning was to take the car out to get the charge down to 90%.
A fully charged Lithium battery starts to eat itself.

We ran our washing machine and dehumidifier on E7 it was hard to identify any increase in cost due to the car.

[NMNeil]

It always makes me smile when the "I can't charge at home" excuse is made.
Simple. Tear out the petrol pump you have at your house that you use to fill your ICE car and replace it with an EV charger.
What; you don't have a petrol pump, you go to a garage to fill up ! 😎
But to quote the RAC to charge an EV from a 10% SOC to 80% takes 32 hours for a standard home 3 pin outlet or 20 hours for a dedicated 3.6kW home charger box
https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric...arging-speeds/
So is it practical to charge at home as it takes so long?

[olduser]

The current battery technology favours a little and often as a charging strategy.
The battery will attack itself if left totally discharged, and will do the same if 100% charged for long periods.
Many cars will stop charging when charge reaches 80% - this is considered to be a safe maximum.
Minimum level is thought to be around 10% - and some cars will show zero charge when there is 10% left or they may make you choose to go lower than 10%.

Too higher charging rate can damage batteries, heat is created as the battery charges, the faster the charge the quicker the heat build up, some manufacturers fit heating and cooling systems to batteries, this was relatively easy in early cars as the battery was made up of many small cylindrical cells; air could flow through the battery, between the cells.
The more modern battery is made of flat cells for tighter packing making it more difficult to cool.
There is a problems with cold as well, cold slows the chemical reactions in the battery, making it harder to charge, or discharge.

As most cars, in practice do short journeys most days so putting on (13A socket*) charge every night, and making use of the cars 80% cut off should be OK.
If the car does not have a max cut off; a bit more thought is required to avoid over charging.
The ideal for the average commuter cars would be a 13A socket at work and one at home so the battery gets refreshed at both ends of the commute.

* 13 Amp (domestic) socket delivers around 3.12 Kw.
There is a lot said about 13A sockets not being suitable, this referrers to socket on a ring main.

Just in case, I had better explain a ring main; A ring main starts at the consumer unit, runs to the first 13A socket then carries on to the next, and so on eventually back to the consumer unit, both ends of the ring are connected to together, so electricity can run in any direction or both directions at once around the loop.

The loop is usually 2.5 mm2 cable (twin with earth and has a capacity of 32 Amps)
This configuration assumes that not all socket will be in use at once, very few will have a 13A load and if so not for long periods.

It is permitted to make spurs off a loop with a limited number of sockets, (a tee junction with a dead end) and herein lies the problem with charging.

A ring main assumes 13A loads on any socket will not happen often and will not be for long periods but charging could be full 13A for a longer period.

A supply to the garage may be on a spur off the house ring main, not good.
Or the garage/outside socket can be not on the house ring main but on a spur of its own, that's good.

You can tell the difference by looking in the consumer unit for a circuit breaker/fuse labelled garage or outside socket.

If not get an electrician in, ask him to wire a socket from the consumer unit to the garage not on the ring or wire for a car charging point.

If you have to use an extension, it must be rated 13A and must be fully uncoiled while in use.

[NMNeil]

Originally Posted by olduser

When I got the car, the dealer had really done a full service, fitted new tyres all round, and there was a certificate from a battery servicing company certifying the battery as full capacity, whatever that meant.

It means that the battery has 100% capacity, this capacity will drop as the battery ages and the normal cut off is 70% of original capacity.
Here it's a Federal mandate that a battery pack is warranted to maintain 80% capacity after 5 years or 62,000 miles and 70% after 8 years or 100,000 miles whichever comes first and this is where the 70% capacity benchmark comes from.
The battery pack will still work just fine but the range will be reduced.

[Lily]

@olduser Thanks for sharing your experience with the Leaf. I’ve never owned an electric car, so it was really interesting to read about its challenges and features.

I especially liked the heater mishap… I was smiling while reading it! It feels like something I’d say to my own husband: “Lovely, but let’s not use it. Like, ever.” 🤣

The Leaf has sold half a million units so far, so I now I know somebody who used to own one, I am going to see them everywhere

[olduser]

It should be remembered that a Leaf was based on an ICE car modified to electric.

We are beginning to see cars designed from the start as EV's I would expect that to make a positive difference.

If I had had a need to visit the children (160, and 250 miles one way) I would have hired an Auto ICE.
Our middle child lives in Australia, needs a packed lunch, too far!

[Rolebama]

@Lily I especially liked the heater mishap… I was smiling while reading it! It feels like something I’d say to my own husband: “Lovely, but let’s not use it. Like, ever.” 🤣
My wife says that about the go pedal in the car!

[Lily]

@Rolebama 😂😂 great minds...