[olduser]

Found on the BBC News;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgj5w7wpg95o

Are number plates now past their use by date?

[Nick]

I suspect they'l be around for a good while yet - presumably at some point being replaced by something more advanced by technology that we don't know about yet! I'm not sure there's anyway of fulfilling the purpose of number plates yet in a way that prevents things like cloning happening - after all it's been happening for a significant time and i don't believe there's been a way identified to stop it as yet.

I also didn't realise that you could buy number plates on Amazon! Presumably you didn't have to provide proof of ownership there?!?!

[TC1474]

This has been going on for years. I was arresting people in the 70's for using false plates and it is unlikely to get any better anytime soon.

Much of the problem is caused by the likes of Amazon and other producers of what they call "Show plates" who require no proof of legitimacy and take purchases on a whim rather than due diligence as bona fide retailers will do.

But in the grand scheme of things, using hurty worty words on the internet id considered a more serious crime than vehicle cloning these days 🙄

[Drivingforfun]

In fairness I don't see how they can make selling a number plate harder, as it's not illegal to own it - i.e. in your kitchen drawer, nor does it legally belong to anyone - I think the "owner" is actually just the person who has the right to choose which vehicle it goes on, but I'm sure someone will correct me if needed

There's lots of things you can buy without the authority to put to its regular use - police uniform/warrant card, military medals, dummy banknotes etc... all sold with a supposedly genuine reason but I'm sure often not used for that reason

My dad just before he left the police about 10 yrs ago said herb grinders were the big thing at that point, supposedly lots of people wanted to grind industrial amounts of herbs for cooking 😂

[Santa]

Since most cars have the same number for life, it would seem reasonable to me for it to be indelibly etched onto the car's bodywork.

Maybe the existing system could continue, but every car could have a machine-readable identifier (like the VIN) that would be linked to whatever number plate was issued.

[NMNeil]

@Santa Problem is one of the first questions we would ask when responding to many crimes was "Did you get the license plate number?"
So the plate would stay but as the VIN number is already stored in the PCM and most cars are now connected to the internet it would be fairly easy to link the VIN reader and number plate recognition cameras together which would alert to any discrepancy between the two.

[Santa]

I thought about this a little more and I think that maybe new cars should be fitted with something like an RFID transmitter that could be triggered by a police car with ANPR to check the match.

The transmitter(s) would have to be located in multiple places and be hard for criminals to find and disable.

[Rolebama]

As most cars now have plastic bumpers, would it be feasible to mould a piece of reflective material into them, and then burn the reg no into this? Yes it would still be cloneable but the cost of a pair of bumpers would put the petty crooks off. Just a thought.

[Beelzebub]

Originally Posted by Rolebama

As most cars now have plastic bumpers, would it be feasible to mould a piece of reflective material into them, and then burn the reg no into this? Yes it would still be cloneable but the cost of a pair of bumpers would put the petty crooks off. Just a thought.

It would also discourage people from buying "personal" plates.

Some might say that would be a good thing. However, it would deprive the DVLA of a valuable income source, which they would have to recoup elsewhere. Be careful what you wish for!

[TC1474]

Why don't we do what many other countries do and issue a licence plate to an individual driver which can then be changed from vehicle to vehicle when it gets changed.

It would make people more accountable but also afford greater protection whilst allowing personalisation to be chosen from the off.

So in theory, you pass your driving test, you obtain your licence and you are given/select your registration plate number and it stays with you for life.

Many people are against personalised plates, but given my 30 years experience of enforcement, it actually makes policing easier as personal plates are more memorable than a standard issue plate.

For example Jimmy Tarbuck has COM 1C. A famous porn actress (before it was outlawed) had FUK 1T. We had a GP in our area who was an awful driver and he got fed up with complaints against his. People remembered him because of his plate DR S1C

Although all the characters are positioned illegally, Police tend to turn a blind eye because they are easily remembered when they screw up.

Hores for courses really.

[Beelzebub]

Many people are against personalised plates, but given my 30 years experience of enforcement, it actually makes policing easier as personal plates are more memorable than a standard issue plate.

.[/QUOTE]
Indeed. A few years ago a would-be bank robber (in South Wales AAIRC) used his own car to get away. That was stupid enough, but made worse by his easily remembered personal number.

[NMNeil]

Originally Posted by TC1474

This has been going on for years. I was arresting people in the 70's for using false plates and it is unlikely to get any better anytime soon.

Much of the problem is caused by the likes of Amazon and other producers of what they call "Show plates" who require no proof of legitimacy and take purchases on a whim rather than due diligence as bona fide retailers will do.

But in the grand scheme of things, using hurty worty words on the internet id considered a more serious crime than vehicle cloning these days 🙄

Not everywhere😎

[olduser]

What if the only source of number plates was the DVLA, they hold the vin number's for all vehicles?
In this age of computers it would be very simple to check what reg. number is issued to which vin when new plates are purchased.

We could fix the plates in a way that makes them very difficult to remove, I was thinking of the glue used to stick todays aircraft together.

At present number plates are fitted at point of sale , and the area in which the vehicle was bought being part of the number but is there any point in this now, as we travel more widely, a vehicle from a different area no longer stands out?

[Drivingforfun]

Do personalised plates actually bring in that much revenue for the DVLA?

Most direct from the DVLA are under £1,000. The super expensive sales tend to already be in circulation, and sold by private owners. There is the VAT but that's only triggered if you have a company sell the plate on your behalf; if selling a £1m plate I'm sure a private deal would be brokered to save 200 grand

[Beelzebub]

Originally Posted by Drivingforfun

Do personalised plates actually bring in that much revenue for the DVLA?

Most direct from the DVLA are under £1,000. The super expensive sales tend to already be in circulation, and sold by private owners. There is the VAT but that's only triggered if you have a company sell the plate on your behalf; if selling a £1m plate I'm sure a private deal would be brokered to save 200 grand

£181 million net of costs in the last published accounts (2021-2022), including both sales and transfers.

[Drivingforfun]

Thanks @Beelzebub

So not negligible but assuming 33 million cars it'd cost everyone about £5 a year if they moved that into car-related taxes

If a more modern system did stop crimes and other stuff I'd guess people would happily pay?

Plus as others already wrote - if it reduced law evasion maybe they'd recoup the £181m just from that so no need for increases

[olduser]

The personalized number plate market could still go on but the DVLA would be involved, and therefore would update their records such that the VIN was tied to the new reg num, and the old reg num would remain connected to the VIN up to the date of the swap.
And of course their system (should) be organised to detect duplications'.

[NMNeil]

Whatever system could be used there would always someone who will find a way round it. So you're left with the penalty if caught, the obvious best deterrent would be that if they catch you, the car gets crushed.

[olduser]

The problem with that is people could innocently purchased the vehicle without knowing it had cloned plates.

[NMNeil]

@olduser I'm not saying crush the car straight away, but only after an investigation and a court order. But if this is the second time the owner has been caught with a cloned plate it should trigger an automatic order to crush the car.

[Beelzebub]

Originally Posted by olduser

The personalized number plate market could still go on but the DVLA would be involved, and therefore would update their records such that the VIN was tied to the new reg num, and the old reg num would remain connected to the VIN up to the date of the swap.

Doesn't that happen at the mo?

[Rolebama]

I am going to assume this is still available. Some years ago it was a bit of a status symbol to have the reg no etched into all the glass. I seem to remember some insurance companies gave a reduction in premiums if this was the case.

As an aside to this, I had a workmate who had the rear screen of his Capri broken. We went to a breakers for a replacement, and the only one they had was an etched one. Some while later he was stopped at 1am for running a red light on the A1 at Archway. He was there for a while explaining to a sharp-eyed PC who noticed it. That payday we were at the Ford dealership car park with me fitting an new unetched screen.

[olduser]

If I remember correctly, insurers were offering etching as an incentive to have their insurance.
On the grounds it would reduce theft, and cut, and shut trading.

Whilst in the past I have bought many parts from wreckers, I would never have thought of looking there for glass.

[Rolebama]

Don't know if it still happens, but older cars had the VINs on the bulkhead, floor and boot floor or rear bulkhead. This was supposed to end cut-and-shuts. It didn't, but it did help identify them.

In the 90s I was flagged down by TrafPol on Archway to try and identify how many cars had been used to build a car. In the sodium streetlights it was clear it was six different shades of white. It also had mismatched front and rear light clusters and bumpers. The poor guy had only bought it that day, and had it impounded that night.

[NumberPlateSpot]

@olduser Yeah honestly this kind of thing is becoming way more common than people think. A lot of people assume cloning plates is some complicated crime, but in reality it’s not that hard anymore.


Someone can literally just see your car parked somewhere, note the number plates, or even grab it from photos online. Then they put the same plate on a similar car and suddenly all the fines, toll charges, or even accident reports start going to the wrong person.


What happened to that woman sounds really stressful. Imagine sitting at home and then getting blamed for an accident hundreds of miles away. Most people wouldn’t even know how to prove they weren’t there.


I still think the plate system works, but the way duplicates can be made so easily is the real problem. There should be much stricter checks when someone wants to get replacement plates made. Otherwise innocent drivers keep getting dragged into situations they had nothing to do with.

[NMNeil]

Originally Posted by NumberPlateSpot

I still think the plate system works, but the way duplicates can be made so easily is the real problem. There should be much stricter checks when someone wants to get replacement plates made. Otherwise innocent drivers keep getting dragged into situations they had nothing to do with.

they still have license plates made in prisons here, and if you decide to make one yourself it's treated the same way as if you were making fake banknotes.
And we have a real problem with drivers putting tinted covers over the plate so Florida put an end to that.

I love the woman who says "like what are we supposed to do; take everything off?" 🤣

[Rolebama]

I have twice had Police knock on my door because 'witnesses' gave my number plate. Once I was doing a gig in Fulham so had plenty of my own witnesses, and the other time I was in A & E having taken a friend there with a heart attack. The only thing I wish was that the Police never came back to tell me if the incidents had been resolved.

FWIW: I have, for many years bought my number plates from a company in the Channel Islands. No nefarious reason, simply because they charge about half the mainland UK prices.

[Santa]

Virtually all new cars are sold through dealers. The DVLA issues several numbers to them, and when they sell a car, part of the pre-delivery cost is fitting the plates. This is why you can often see a series of similar numbers on cars at a dealership.

When the dealer fits a plate, they give the details to the DVLA, including the make, model, and colour. The VIN would also be included – in fact, all the details that the DVLA put on the V5c.

[Rolebama]

There were three LVLOs in the general area I lived. Ealing, Stanmore and Ruislip Manor. Each employed somewhere in the order of a dozen people. I don't see it as a stretch of the imagination to think that those people wanted to work there, and were capable of doing the job properly. Now we have whatever the current name is at Swansea, employing thousands. I don't accept for one minute that that they all want to be there, or that they are capable of doing their job.
Personally, I have, after 40+yrs am now the holder of a Driving License with my correct name on it. I used to get stopped regularly because of this. I have had them tell the Police that they have never sent a License to my address, despite them sending six. I have had them sending debt collectors after me for an £80 fpn for not SORNing a car which I did not own. They advised the Court Services that I had endorsements on my License for offences I had never committed.
They have sent registration documents with wrong vehicle information on them. They have sent renewed Licenses with wrong entitlements, and denied Licenses to those entitled to them.
I would be curious to know how much 'cloning' they are indirectly, or directly, responsible for.

[olduser]

I bet no one ever said, sorry!

I have always thought large organisations, including government departments, don't understand the value of complaints.
Complaints are an opportunity to see how well or badly an organisation is performing, where and how it is failing.
Correction can only happen, when authorised at an appropriate level within the organisation.

It would appear getting things right is not important, just look at how complaints are dealt with, at the lowest level possible, with the object being to get rid of the caller and not even record the complaint.
If nothing else complaints should be recorded, and made available to a director who can feed them back at an appropriate management level to change system to prevent reoccurrence, and to apologise/compensate to the customer.