[olduser]

Found on the BBC News;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgj5w7wpg95o

Are number plates now past their use by date?

[Nick]

I suspect they'l be around for a good while yet - presumably at some point being replaced by something more advanced by technology that we don't know about yet! I'm not sure there's anyway of fulfilling the purpose of number plates yet in a way that prevents things like cloning happening - after all it's been happening for a significant time and i don't believe there's been a way identified to stop it as yet.

I also didn't realise that you could buy number plates on Amazon! Presumably you didn't have to provide proof of ownership there?!?!

[TC1474]

This has been going on for years. I was arresting people in the 70's for using false plates and it is unlikely to get any better anytime soon.

Much of the problem is caused by the likes of Amazon and other producers of what they call "Show plates" who require no proof of legitimacy and take purchases on a whim rather than due diligence as bona fide retailers will do.

But in the grand scheme of things, using hurty worty words on the internet id considered a more serious crime than vehicle cloning these days 🙄

[Drivingforfun]

In fairness I don't see how they can make selling a number plate harder, as it's not illegal to own it - i.e. in your kitchen drawer, nor does it legally belong to anyone - I think the "owner" is actually just the person who has the right to choose which vehicle it goes on, but I'm sure someone will correct me if needed

There's lots of things you can buy without the authority to put to its regular use - police uniform/warrant card, military medals, dummy banknotes etc... all sold with a supposedly genuine reason but I'm sure often not used for that reason

My dad just before he left the police about 10 yrs ago said herb grinders were the big thing at that point, supposedly lots of people wanted to grind industrial amounts of herbs for cooking 😂

[Santa]

Since most cars have the same number for life, it would seem reasonable to me for it to be indelibly etched onto the car's bodywork.

Maybe the existing system could continue, but every car could have a machine-readable identifier (like the VIN) that would be linked to whatever number plate was issued.

[NMNeil]

@Santa Problem is one of the first questions we would ask when responding to many crimes was "Did you get the license plate number?"
So the plate would stay but as the VIN number is already stored in the PCM and most cars are now connected to the internet it would be fairly easy to link the VIN reader and number plate recognition cameras together which would alert to any discrepancy between the two.

[Santa]

I thought about this a little more and I think that maybe new cars should be fitted with something like an RFID transmitter that could be triggered by a police car with ANPR to check the match.

The transmitter(s) would have to be located in multiple places and be hard for criminals to find and disable.

[Rolebama]

As most cars now have plastic bumpers, would it be feasible to mould a piece of reflective material into them, and then burn the reg no into this? Yes it would still be cloneable but the cost of a pair of bumpers would put the petty crooks off. Just a thought.

[Beelzebub]

Originally Posted by Rolebama

As most cars now have plastic bumpers, would it be feasible to mould a piece of reflective material into them, and then burn the reg no into this? Yes it would still be cloneable but the cost of a pair of bumpers would put the petty crooks off. Just a thought.

It would also discourage people from buying "personal" plates.

Some might say that would be a good thing. However, it would deprive the DVLA of a valuable income source, which they would have to recoup elsewhere. Be careful what you wish for!

[TC1474]

Why don't we do what many other countries do and issue a licence plate to an individual driver which can then be changed from vehicle to vehicle when it gets changed.

It would make people more accountable but also afford greater protection whilst allowing personalisation to be chosen from the off.

So in theory, you pass your driving test, you obtain your licence and you are given/select your registration plate number and it stays with you for life.

Many people are against personalised plates, but given my 30 years experience of enforcement, it actually makes policing easier as personal plates are more memorable than a standard issue plate.

For example Jimmy Tarbuck has COM 1C. A famous porn actress (before it was outlawed) had FUK 1T. We had a GP in our area who was an awful driver and he got fed up with complaints against his. People remembered him because of his plate DR S1C

Although all the characters are positioned illegally, Police tend to turn a blind eye because they are easily remembered when they screw up.

Hores for courses really.

[Beelzebub]

Many people are against personalised plates, but given my 30 years experience of enforcement, it actually makes policing easier as personal plates are more memorable than a standard issue plate.

.[/QUOTE]
Indeed. A few years ago a would-be bank robber (in South Wales AAIRC) used his own car to get away. That was stupid enough, but made worse by his easily remembered personal number.

[NMNeil]

Originally Posted by TC1474

This has been going on for years. I was arresting people in the 70's for using false plates and it is unlikely to get any better anytime soon.

Much of the problem is caused by the likes of Amazon and other producers of what they call "Show plates" who require no proof of legitimacy and take purchases on a whim rather than due diligence as bona fide retailers will do.

But in the grand scheme of things, using hurty worty words on the internet id considered a more serious crime than vehicle cloning these days 🙄

Not everywhere😎

[olduser]

What if the only source of number plates was the DVLA, they hold the vin number's for all vehicles?
In this age of computers it would be very simple to check what reg. number is issued to which vin when new plates are purchased.

We could fix the plates in a way that makes them very difficult to remove, I was thinking of the glue used to stick todays aircraft together.

At present number plates are fitted at point of sale , and the area in which the vehicle was bought being part of the number but is there any point in this now, as we travel more widely, a vehicle from a different area no longer stands out?

[Drivingforfun]

Do personalised plates actually bring in that much revenue for the DVLA?

Most direct from the DVLA are under £1,000. The super expensive sales tend to already be in circulation, and sold by private owners. There is the VAT but that's only triggered if you have a company sell the plate on your behalf; if selling a £1m plate I'm sure a private deal would be brokered to save 200 grand

[Beelzebub]

Originally Posted by Drivingforfun

Do personalised plates actually bring in that much revenue for the DVLA?

Most direct from the DVLA are under £1,000. The super expensive sales tend to already be in circulation, and sold by private owners. There is the VAT but that's only triggered if you have a company sell the plate on your behalf; if selling a £1m plate I'm sure a private deal would be brokered to save 200 grand

£181 million net of costs in the last published accounts (2021-2022), including both sales and transfers.

[Drivingforfun]

Thanks @Beelzebub

So not negligible but assuming 33 million cars it'd cost everyone about £5 a year if they moved that into car-related taxes

If a more modern system did stop crimes and other stuff I'd guess people would happily pay?

Plus as others already wrote - if it reduced law evasion maybe they'd recoup the £181m just from that so no need for increases

[olduser]

The personalized number plate market could still go on but the DVLA would be involved, and therefore would update their records such that the VIN was tied to the new reg num, and the old reg num would remain connected to the VIN up to the date of the swap.
And of course their system (should) be organised to detect duplications'.

[NMNeil]

Whatever system could be used there would always someone who will find a way round it. So you're left with the penalty if caught, the obvious best deterrent would be that if they catch you, the car gets crushed.

[olduser]

The problem with that is people could innocently purchased the vehicle without knowing it had cloned plates.

[NMNeil]

@olduser I'm not saying crush the car straight away, but only after an investigation and a court order. But if this is the second time the owner has been caught with a cloned plate it should trigger an automatic order to crush the car.

[Beelzebub]

Originally Posted by olduser

The personalized number plate market could still go on but the DVLA would be involved, and therefore would update their records such that the VIN was tied to the new reg num, and the old reg num would remain connected to the VIN up to the date of the swap.

Doesn't that happen at the mo?

[Rolebama]

I am going to assume this is still available. Some years ago it was a bit of a status symbol to have the reg no etched into all the glass. I seem to remember some insurance companies gave a reduction in premiums if this was the case.

As an aside to this, I had a workmate who had the rear screen of his Capri broken. We went to a breakers for a replacement, and the only one they had was an etched one. Some while later he was stopped at 1am for running a red light on the A1 at Archway. He was there for a while explaining to a sharp-eyed PC who noticed it. That payday we were at the Ford dealership car park with me fitting an new unetched screen.

[olduser]

If I remember correctly, insurers were offering etching as an incentive to have their insurance.
On the grounds it would reduce theft, and cut, and shut trading.

Whilst in the past I have bought many parts from wreckers, I would never have thought of looking there for glass.

[Rolebama]

Don't know if it still happens, but older cars had the VINs on the bulkhead, floor and boot floor or rear bulkhead. This was supposed to end cut-and-shuts. It didn't, but it did help identify them.

In the 90s I was flagged down by TrafPol on Archway to try and identify how many cars had been used to build a car. In the sodium streetlights it was clear it was six different shades of white. It also had mismatched front and rear light clusters and bumpers. The poor guy had only bought it that day, and had it impounded that night.