Looks OK to me!

  • olduser's Avatar
    I found this on BBC news, obviously I haven't driven it but it looks OK to me.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gpv96lyp4o

    What do you think.

    I notice in the article they talk about who has right of way, they really should know better.
  • 26 Replies

  • Beelzebub's Avatar
    I'm not surprised people are confused, since none of the markings seem to comly with any regulations or guidance.

    In particular, there are no recognisable 'give-way' lines. Do they mean give way, or stop? Or maybe both? Or neither?
  • TC1474's Avatar
    I have to use this junction nearly every working day, and it is a nightmare, and despite what the media might say, there have been numerous crashes, some serious but the majority damage only.

    The original layout of 2 mini roundabouts worked absolutely fine. Everyone knew how to deal with it, traffic flowed, all it needed was a resurface and some paint.

    But instead the local council spent £5.5 million and shut the roads off for 7 months whilst they installed this monstrosity which does not conform to any traffic regulation or sign that I know of, and when raised with the local council, they 1, did not know that it was non compliant and 2, didn't care because it looked good.

    I have already had a couple of law firms ask me to do some crash investigations for this junction for a couple of serious crashes that have occurred.

    Most of the locals are not happy, it is a case of watch this space..
  • olduser's Avatar
    I'm not surprised people are confused, since none of the markings seem to comly with any regulations or guidance.

    In particular, there are no recognisable 'give-way' lines. Do they mean give way, or stop? Or maybe both? Or neither?

    I interpret lines like the solid and dashed lines as, don't enter the roundabout unless it is clear (solid line) and give way to traffic to the right. (dashed line)
    I have seen this combination previously but I cannot remember where, I could not find it in the HC.

    Out of curiosity I asked the question in AI Chat, the response is below;
    "When you see a white line marking across the road at a roundabout in the UK that consists of a solid line alongside a dashed line, it serves a specific purpose related to traffic control.
    In this context:

    • The solid line indicates that you should not enter the roundabout if it is unsafe to do so, often related to the presence of vehicles already on the roundabout.
    • The dashed line indicates that you may enter the roundabout when it is safe and clear to do so.

    Essentially, this marking is meant to help manage the flow of traffic at the roundabout, providing a visual cue for drivers to assess whether it's safe to proceed, especially when there are vehicles already circulating. Always be vigilant and yield to traffic on the roundabout as the general rule when approaching such markings."
  • olduser's Avatar
    I have to use this junction nearly every working day, and it is a nightmare, and despite what the media might say, there have been numerous crashes, some serious but the majority damage only.

    The original layout of 2 mini roundabouts worked absolutely fine. Everyone knew how to deal with it, traffic flowed, all it needed was a resurface and some paint.

    But instead the local council spent £5.5 million and shut the roads off for 7 months whilst they installed this monstrosity which does not conform to any traffic regulation or sign that I know of, and when raised with the local council, they 1, did not know that it was non compliant and 2, didn't care because it looked good.

    I have already had a couple of law firms ask me to do some crash investigations for this junction for a couple of serious crashes that have occurred.

    Most of the locals are not happy, it is a case of watch this space..

    I must say, I am amazed to read of crashes on such a layout, the immediate thought is what on earth were the drivers involved doing?

  • TC1474's Avatar
    I must say, I am amazed to read of crashes on such a layout, the immediate thought is what on earth were the drivers involved doing?

    The pictures do not do it justice, it is a mess from a drivers perspective, and it is not helped that this residential area is a community of quite elderly drivers and this is located on a major rat run from Reading and Wokingham to Bracknell, Sandhurst and Crowthorne.

    And as you can see, it is not a conventional roundabout, unlike what was in place prior to all this money and time being spent. This has caused confusion, concern and indecision.
  • olduser's Avatar
    I can only see the original layout on Google Map (street view), that looks clumsy with little thought for pedestrians.

    I can see that the new layout is very different, and would need thought and some caution, this implies everyone should be going slowly (I would think that would be the intention slowing traffic to give pedestrians a chance).

    What I would be questioning is the markings on the pedestrian's crossings, whilst they are not Pedestrian Crossings, the white leaf's are a confusion for drivers and pedestrians.
  • Beelzebub's Avatar
    I interpret lines like the solid and dashed lines as, don't enter the roundabout unless it is clear (solid line) and give way to traffic to the right. (dashed line)
    I have seen this combination previously but I cannot remember where, I could not find it in the HC.

    Out of curiosity I asked the question in AI Chat, the response is below;
    "When you see a white line marking across the road at a roundabout in the UK that consists of a solid line alongside a dashed line, it serves a specific purpose related to traffic control.
    In this context:

    • The solid line indicates that you should not enter the roundabout if it is unsafe to do so, often related to the presence of vehicles already on the roundabout.
    • The dashed line indicates that you may enter the roundabout when it is safe and clear to do so.

    "
    You shouldn't have to "interpret" road markings. The law tells you what they mean, and the lines in question don't comply with any known law.

    BTW, what makes you think it's a roundabout, since it doesn't have any of the defining features?
  • Drivingforfun's Avatar
    I really don't like when people get overly stuffy and serious about stuff ... too many miseryguts about and we need more fun and colour in our lives ... but, even to me, this goes a step too far 😳 😆
  • TC1474's Avatar
    I can only see the original layout on Google Map (street view), that looks clumsy with little thought for pedestrians. to give pedestrians a chance).

    The old layout worked perfectly. It was not clumsy, it was well signed and everyone (even dealing with the junction for the first time) knew exactly how to approach and deal with it and traffic flowed beautifully.

    Like I said, all it needed was a bit of new tarmac, so paint and it was ready to go for a fraction of the price of what this rubbish cost.
  • olduser's Avatar
    You shouldn't have to "interpret" road markings. The law tells you what they mean, and the lines in question don't comply with any known law.

    BTW, what makes you think it's a roundabout, since it doesn't have any of the defining features?

    As in real life most drivers try to straighten roundabouts out, this layout (possibly accidently) appears to have acknowledged that.
    Traffic going straight on can ignore any pretence, and simply go straight on (hence the solid line)
    Traffic going left or right, have the choice, drive it as a cross road or drive it as a roundabout, it makes no real difference, they will have to give way to traffic from their right (hence the dashed line).

    It looks as though pedestrians are less inconvenienced, the painted lines at the entry points should have slowed the vehicles sufficiently for them to see pedestrians, and what they are doing or going to do.
  • TC1474's Avatar
    As in real life most drivers try to straighten roundabouts out, this layout (possibly accidently) appears to have acknowledged that.
    Traffic going straight on can ignore any pretence, and simply go straight on (hence the solid line)
    Traffic going left or right, have the choice, drive it as a cross road or drive it as a roundabout, it makes no real difference, they will have to give way to traffic from their right (hence the dashed line).

    It looks as though pedestrians are less inconvenienced, the painted lines at the entry points should have slowed the vehicles sufficiently for them to see pedestrians, and what they are doing or going to do.

    Given that drivers are not supposed to straighten up roundabouts (unless they want to be potentially held liable in a crash) this is a simple case of the engineers and designers screwed up.

    I have just been through the junction again this morning and surprise surprise, yet another crash, thankfully damage only) , but the whole layout is wrong, confusing and potentially dangerous.

    You can say what you like about this layout based on the pictures you can see, but you cannot appreciate the reality and stupidity of this junction until you drive through it, especially when (as I said before) there was nothing wrong with the previous layout that a bit of tarmac and a spot of paint could not have fixed.

    I give it 12 - 18 months and I think it will be reverted to its original format like so many other experiments they have tried in our area.
  • olduser's Avatar
    The old layout worked perfectly. It was not clumsy, it was well signed and everyone (even dealing with the junction for the first time) knew exactly how to approach and deal with it and traffic flowed beautifully.

    Like I said, all it needed was a bit of new tarmac, so paint and it was ready to go for a fraction of the price of what this rubbish cost.

    In my view, we have spent years improving traffic flow but what has it achieved?

    Combined with development in vehicles, drivers now have to put so little effort into driving they have stopped bothering to drive, they just follow the bumper in front, and try and drive on reaction only.

    Anything that forces a driver to think about what they are doing has to be good, free flowing traffic is fine, if everyone obeys the rules but many, far too many don't, which should be expected, they are individual humans, and as humans will tend toward the easy option with thinking being a hard option.

    So in my world, anything that makes a driver wakeup and pay attention to driving is good but that is only my opinion.
  • TC1474's Avatar
    So in my world, anything that makes a driver wakeup and pay attention to driving is good but that is only my opinion.

    I would agree with you, but as is accepted in the driver training circle, the trouble we have is that drivers ten d to drive on local knowledge rather than what they can see.

    In short this means that drivers that circumstances will remain a constant instead of accepting that they need to drive the road as if they are driving it for the first time even though they may have driven that road every day for the previous 364 days..

    It is supposedly one of the reasons why the DVLA do not like learners to be taught the test routes, but instructors such as my brother in law ignore this ruling want passes, hence we go back to the old topic of the driving test not being fit for purpose because they are being trained to pass a test instead of being taught the skills for life.

    California crossroads is one of those where drivers do not wake up because of its confusion, and they still expect to drive on what they know rather than what they can see, simply because thier observational and driving plan rules are non existent.

    I was conducting an advanced test a few weeks ago and I took the candidate through the junction. You would not believe the panic that set in?

    Suffice to say the individual did not attain the grade, but the problem is far reaching.
  • Rolebama's Avatar
    This is what happens when Magic Roundabout fans grow up and inveigle their way into local government.🙄
  • olduser's Avatar
    As in real life most drivers try to straighten roundabouts out, this layout (possibly accidently) appears to have acknowledged that.
    Traffic going straight on can ignore any pretence, and simply go straight on (hence the solid line)
    Traffic going left or right, have the choice, drive it as a cross road or drive it as a roundabout, it makes no real difference, they will have to give way to traffic from their right (hence the dashed line).

    It looks as though pedestrians are less inconvenienced, the painted lines at the entry points should have slowed the vehicles sufficiently for them to see pedestrians, and what they are doing or going to do.

    Post removed posted in error, sorry.
    Last edited by olduser; 03-02-25 at 15:41.
  • TC1474's Avatar
    I just remembered about the road markings, where I have recently seen them, it is in Sunderland on a major route into Sunderland on a roundabout, the main route has the usual dashed line at the entry but the minor (crossing) roads have a broad solid and a dashed line, as the lines in the picture.

    Whilst the roundabout is not a mini, it does fit into the width of the main road.
    So the minor road traffic crossing the main road can, and do just about drive straight on treating it as a crossroad, unless they are turning right.

    The main road straight ahead has to treat it as a roundabout.

    But think about it logically, a 3 exit roundabout is simply a crossroads with a central island.

    But a lot of drivers have no idea how to actually negotiate a roundabout, especially when it comes to positioning, signalling (which is often wrong) and who they should give priority to.
  • olduser's Avatar
    But think about it logically, a 3 exit roundabout is simply a crossroads with a central island.

    But a lot of drivers have no idea how to actually negotiate a roundabout, especially when it comes to positioning, signalling (which is often wrong) and who they should give priority to.

    Sorry TC1474 I posted my stuff about the Sunderland roundabout with two lines, then thought I would check on Google map and found it shows up with a single dashed line.
    So rather than risk my memory being wrong, I tried to delete the post, that did not work so I put a note in place.

    I agree with your comment though, there are two separate ways of driving a roundabout, as per the Highway Code, that is simple but we are forced into the second way, which is to fit into what is actually going on.

    When asked about roundabouts, I go through the HC notes, and then emphasise extra vigilance is a must, signals or not don't assume you know what others are doing look and see, don't be rushed, and try to make sure what you are doing is clear to others around you. (signals and road position) Finally, if you find you are unable to plan ahead from the roundabout sign, you are going too fast.

    On rereading that If I throw in, if in doubt don't, and never 'pressure' others, I think, it' makes a reasonable driving philosophy.
  • Rolebama's Avatar
    This may seem a silly question - but, what roundabout? I can't see one on that picture, let alone two!? Just a fantasy, possibly CGI of what a brain-addled village idiot may envision when high.
    I accept that they may be out of picture, but I can't see any warning or informational signage for a roundabout either.
  • Beelzebub's Avatar
    This may seem a silly question - but, what roundabout? I can't see one on that picture, let alone two!? Just a fantasy, possibly CGI of what a brain-addled village idiot may envision when high.
    I accept that they may be out of picture, but I can't see any warning or informational signage for a roundabout either.
    Far from a silly question. Streetview shows advance signs on the old layout, they may still be there.

    Whatever, there are none of the other characteristics of a roundabout. Give-way lines, and a central feature: either a physical barrier with a kerb (normal roundabout), or a painted roundel, possibly with arrows (mini-roundabout).

    One of the things which makes our roads relatively safe (by international standards) is a national and generally understood system of signs and road markings. If Council A allows a brain-addled village idiot* to ignore the system and tun amok with his own designs, what's to stop neighbouring Council B doing their own thing? Maybe tartan "zebra" crossings, or blue, pink and turquoise traffic lights? Chaos ensues.

    End of rant.

    * = Thank you Rolebama for that well-honed and apposite phrase.
  • TC1474's Avatar
    This may seem a silly question - but, what roundabout? I can't see one on that picture, let alone two!? Just a fantasy, possibly CGI of what a brain-addled village idiot may envision when high.
    I accept that they may be out of picture, but I can't see any warning or informational signage for a roundabout either.

    Exactly the point we have all been making.

    I am really looking forward to going to trial in an injury case and the local authority being held liable 😉
  • olduser's Avatar
    This may seem a silly question - but, what roundabout? I can't see one on that picture, let alone two!? Just a fantasy, possibly CGI of what a brain-addled village idiot may envision when high.
    I accept that they may be out of picture, but I can't see any warning or informational signage for a roundabout either.

    I don't know what the designers had in mind but as I see it, it can be driven as a junction or a roundabout because the painted lines are saying don't enter unless it is empty, and give way to traffic from your right.
    Following those rules there should only ever be one vehicle at a time in the coloured area.

    Looking at the picture in, the upper sort of roundabout (R/A), the grey car has jumped the gun, he may be signalling right or one backlight has failed but if it intends to leave on the upper right he just passes behind the van, and the black car has to give way (traffic from the right) if he intends to go straight on, fine.

    Black car, is held until grey and white van clear the upper R/A.

    The white van should not enter the lower R/A but he can move to the next lines at the entrance to the lower R/A then wait until the dark grey car in the lower R/A has cleared but if it intends to leave into the lower right road, OK but if it wants to leave lower left road then he has to wait for dark grey or until white van can pass behind it.

    In the lower R/A, dark grey is stuck if it intends to go up to the upper R/A because the white car cannot move until light grey clears the upper R/A.
    Red car, is waiting for dark grey to clear, (lower R/A) if red wants to turn left into lower left road then he can wait until dark grey has moved into the lower R/A far enough for him to turn left behind dark grey, as though he was on a normal round about or a simple road junction.

    If red car wants to get onto the upper RA he has to wait until grey (upper RA) moves letting white cross the pedestrian area, when dark grey is able to vacate first half of pedestrian area then red is safe to move onto lower R/A.

    A car in left lower road wanting to turn right uses the lower R/A area similar to a R/A but only if it is safe to do so, as the picture is at the moment, he could pass dark grey in front so the pass each other nearside to nearside (which is what R/A forces you to do).
    Once dark grey has cleared then red would go next under the give way to the right rule.

    Whew, I hope I haven't mixed the vehicles up!
  • Beelzebub's Avatar
    I don't know what the designers had in mind but as I see it, it can be driven as a junction or a roundabout because the painted lines are saying don't enter unless it is empty, and give way to traffic from your right.
    Following those rules there should only ever be one vehicle at a time in the coloured area.
    The painted lines are not saying anything of the kind.

    The two white lines have entirely different meanings. A single broken line means "give way" (at a mini-roundabout, which doesn't apply here).A solid line means "stop", but only when accompanied by a red octagonal "Stop" sign. So which do you do?

    The two lines in combination are not prescribed in law and are meaningless.
  • olduser's Avatar
    A double dotted line means give way to the major road and can be found at some mini roundabouts.
    A single (broader) doted line is give way at mini roundabouts but often used on roundabouts.
    That's what I have just found with a Internet search.

    But I don't think it matters because the picture is neither roundabout or simple junction it is a bit of both.
    What I was trying to do in my last post was show how it could be driven by applying basic traffic rules.
    Just working on the principle that lines across the road in general mean, 'wakeup there's possible danger ahead.' so don't go ahead until you can see it is safe to do so.
    Yes, I know that is not in the HCode but I think that is the best you will get from the average driver.

    But I do understand that with your background you will want things less flexible.

    I think if I was accompanying a new driver over that complex, I would say, "You can imagine roundabouts and drive them or treat them as road junction, or choose whichever suits what you are doing, just follow the rules of the road", two vehicles turning right are safer passing offside to offside, I think is the main thing. (Oh! as I wrote that, I think I wrote nearside to nearside above in the last post, what I meant is driver to driver, like we were taught to turn right, sorry can I claim a grey moment ?)
    Last edited by olduser; 07-02-25 at 21:49.
  • TC1474's Avatar
    I was conducting a driving test this morning. Guess what? I passed another crash at the same location ..

    It is getting beyond a joke.

    I have to go back there again this afternoon 🙄
  • olduser's Avatar
    I really cannot understand how anyone could manage to crash.

    If nothing else, they must see it as a hazard, therefore drive with caution?
  • olduser's Avatar
    More news on this.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn042065g0zo

    It looks to me as though the, I cannot be bothered to pay attention to driving crowed are fighting back.