Costly mistake

  • Mark07's Avatar
    Community Manager
    I see that Kia are recalling 23,000 EV's following due to safety concerns around a single employee who may not have fitted seat bolts.

    https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other...ts/ar-AA1wI5qC

    They checked 1,000 vehicles and haven't found any missing bolts, however they received three complaints about loose seats which triggered the recall. Ouch.

    This got me thinking, what's a costly mistake that you've made?

    For me, I had my house roof replaced a couple of years ago and accepted the lowest quote... well, 3 months later, the whole think needed ripping off and doing again (read, properly).

    Thanks,
    Mark.
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  • 23 Replies

  • TC1474's Avatar
    It was nearly a costly mistake, but I was lucky.

    When I was working in private law I was inputting some data into the firms system. I had spent hours putting in all the crash stats, details and everything else and at the completion I pressed enter and the whole thing crashed, everything was wiped out including all the data for my department.

    I had one of those "Please earth, open u and swallow me " moments as I thought it would stop operations and someone was going to have months of work just reinstalling everything.

    So, there was nothing for it but to go to the boss and admit to what I had done on the basis that honesty is the best policy, so I gingerly went to his office and heart in mouth explained what had happened whilst apologising profusely as I did so.

    He looked at me, smiled and thanked me for my honesty and said "No problem, you aren't the first its happened to and you wont be the last" at which point he told me that it was all backed up and sure enough within about 5 minutes all was back to normal including all the data I had inputted.

    The sigh of relief on my part could probably be heard throughout the building..
  • Drivingforfun's Avatar
    I remember the Top Gear episode where Nissan had to recall millions of cars, and they were discussing how much it would cost just in stamps to send the letters out to everyone ... before even needing to work on the cars!!!
  • Mark07's Avatar
    Community Manager
    @TC1474 this reminds me of a story i heard about Pixar (animated movie studio). Towards the end of them making Toy Story 2 (I think) somebody accidentally deleted the virtually finished movie - I can only imagine how many millions would have been spent on it.

    Thankfully, somebody on maternity leave had a copy of the movie in their inbox and saved the day.
  • Rolebama's Avatar
    When I was a lad I got a weekend and holiday job on a building site. The guys taught me to drive a dumper, and one of them had a dodgy starting handle, which had to have a nail put in just right to engage with the crankshaft. One day I put the nail in too far and when it started, the handle wouldn't disengage. This was on a cold winter morning and the cold start engaged taking the revs up quite considerably. Well. the handle was spinning away causing the dumper to do a little dance. The handle came free and flew off through the side of the wooden shed used as a tea hut. Quite a few of the workers were in there, and the noise they begun to make quite frightened me. When they emerged, one of them grabbed me by the ear, and marched me inside. The handle had skimmed across the top of the cooker and knocked some of the frying pans over, spilling fat onto the cooker and blazing away. I was then dragged back out, and we all stood around watching as the hut burnt down. At that time all the site plant was parked up next to the hut, so a big Lansing-Bagnall side loader, the dumper, and a crane were destroyed as they also caught fire as the diesel tanks burst. This was before Health and Safety so there were no fire extinguishers on site and the nearest phone box was about a mile away, so by the the time the fire brigade turned up, the damage was done, and all they could do was put some water on the remains.
    The company owner was also called and he took me home. I have no idea what the total cost of damage was, but before he left, the owner told me not to be late in the morning.
  • Mark07's Avatar
    Community Manager
    I remember the Top Gear episode where Nissan had to recall millions of cars, and they were discussing how much it would cost just in stamps to send the letters out to everyone ... before even needing to work on the cars!!!

    Oaft, I guess it was cheaper than being sued.
  • olduser's Avatar
    I think the Pixar story is just an urban myth as particularly with systems where many people work on a small part of a large problem, the computer system will automatically backup work as it is progressing. (My 1976 copy of Microsoft Office automatically backs-up every 10 mins)
    Then at the end of the day, the total work is backed up on a local storage, and off site storage.
    It is pointless just backing up on the premises, what if the building gets on fire?

    I have lost count of the number of times I have been asked to, 'recover' work that was not lost just elsewhere on the computer.
    In most cases, the business had not organised a good backup strategy anyway.

    I am wary of the dependency on the Cloud for backing up, businesses have to pay and it is expensive, and with so much data in one place it is an obvious target for hackers.

    I had a little smile a few months ago.
    I was told the manager of the care home was hopping mad, because she had been working on the monthly report to Head Office all day, she had finished, gone to get another cup of tea, came back to read the report through, and the computer had shut down, she was having to start again!

    When I found the manager, she was in the Administrators office just starting the report again.
    I explain, we go back to here office, restart the computer (it had shut down automatically because it had been left 30 mins with no action) opened the report, and of course it was all there, I showed her that there was also a backup but in a different Directory.

    In fact all the reports from when the computer had first been used were there, and their backups (in the backup directory).
    No one had told her that she could, at any time stop, save the work, and close the computer to come back later to pickup where she left off!
    Or she could write small sections (say paragraphs) save them as individual files, write the next and save, then finally paste the paragraphs into the finished report in whatever order she thought appropriate.
    Or copy last months report and edit it for the current month.

    If only people would take time to understand the tools they are using.
    Last edited by olduser; 06-01-25 at 14:03.
  • Mark07's Avatar
    Community Manager
    [...] I have no idea what the total cost of damage was, but before he left, the owner told me not to be late in the morning.

    Yikes! As i was reading that, I expected you to say the owner asked you not to come back.

    Building sites can be dangerous places, I guess looking back the idea that nobody was hurt is the most important thing.

    I know a lift engineer who has told me some horror stories that he has seen over many years - mostly from human error. It's made me appreciate that there's a reason behind those health and safety rules.
  • Drivingforfun's Avatar
    I might be asking a silly question, but am I right in thinking storing data in “clouds” is just a posh way of sending it to be saved on a hard drive somewhere else in the world?

    If I save a load of data in “the cloud”, is it all kept together on one of the cloud operator’s numerous hard drives, or is it in fact mixed up and combined with lots of others’ data and not stored in one single place?

    I can see benefits to both methods I think
  • olduser's Avatar
    The Cloud, is data storage centre/s, and yes it is stocked with hundreds of very large hard drives.

    These drives will be divided into sections and these in their turn divided into directories each individual having a directory.
    Whoever has provided the service to you will be paying for the section, and they will have setup the directory for you.
    Some one like Apple will have many of these drives divided out among their customers, computer or phone customers.
    Every time the device is recharged it will upload it's contents to the Cloud.
    Of course this is not free, Apples charges for their products is inflated by the cost of the cloud service.

    Because there is lots of data in one place they are obvious targets for hackers.
    These Data centres consume large amounts of electricity and generate an equal amount of heat.

    The data centre makes money by selling storage space to big business but it is very expensive.

    Talking to a Director of a company, I was shocked to find he thought the cloud was something in space!
    He did not know that for about 10% - 20% of what they were paying per year for the cloud service, they could buy servers for each office and configure them so in the event of a fire the company could recover the lost data from their other servers.
    Providing they kept up with updates the risk of hacking would be about the same.
    He then said, but with the cloud they could send data between offices.
    Again, he did not know that this could be done anyway encoded or not all via the internet, and that is what the cloud was using to move data.

  • olduser's Avatar
    Years ago when I was in the glass fibre industry.
    I was working on a problem with the furnaces we melted glass in, I was trying to devise a method for measuring the amount of molten glass in the furnace to control an automatic feeder.
    After many weeks of trial and error, it dawned on me that the output of glass was constant if the temperature, and glass level were constant.
    I had worked on the temperature, and that was now tightly controlled.

    Therefore with a constant output I could think in terms of a constant input.💡

    To keep costs down, this resolved itself into a modified weighing machine (literally a set of kitchen scales with a hopper arranged to be pneumatically tipped into the furnace at the correct weight).
    I built a controller out of electrical timers and relays, to tip a batch of glass at a pre-set weight into the furnace at set intervals, the glass was fed into the hopper from a vibrating chute, the hopper gave itself a couple of taps to shake out any fine glass. (Clever stuff😏)
    This was tested by the shifts, there were some variations between shifts but all looked to be OK.

    There had always been differences in output between shifts, some ran with deeper glass levels or slightly higher temperature, both of these would increase output.

    The cost of the new setup had to be minimised, my control system (timers and relays) was expensive could I cut the price?

    As there was a university nearby I contacted their electronics department could they do the control function cheaper electronically?
    They responded with yes but what about the time they could use the mains 50 cycles or a crystal oscillator as the time standard, I said use the mains 50 cycles it's cheaper.

    We ordered 5 prototypes, but the Uni said if we would pay, they would order parts for 50 units as it would be very much cheaper, fine go ahead.

    The prototypes almost did the job but once I had persuaded the shifts to let the system run without interference, there was a problem, the system behaved as though the glass weight kept changing.
    A few days later I decide to check every hour for 24 hours (lots of cups of tea).
    I found, the system was under feeding glass in the early morning dropping back to correct late morning then underfeeding afternoon until about 17:00 hrs then normal again, during the night it started to overfeed.
    Yet, the weight of glass leaving the weighing hoppers was always correct?

    I reluctantly, started to suspect the control system but this was digital so it should run or stop.

    Then a guy I new, came from the electricity board (pre privatisation), he looked at me and said you look bloody awful what's up?
    After I had outlined the problem, he reminded me mains frequency was not 50 cycles constant but 50 cycles is the average over 24 hours.
    At peak times the frequency drops, and at night the frequency increases as the generators are run very slightly faster to catch up to an average of 50 cycles per second over 24 hours.

    Oh dear, I must have lived on humble pie for more than a week.😡
  • Drivingforfun's Avatar
    Thanks @olduser!

    Is it possible for one person's data to be broken into little "pockets" and saved in lots of different data centres - hundreds, even? So, a hacked data centre wouldn't jeopardise all my stuff, they'd just get a few lines of code out of each person's content?

    I don't know if that's possible or if I'm imagining something that can't be done on a computer!!

    Another point I think's worth mentioning is I think lots of us use the cloud without realising, e.g. I'll sometimes send someone an email with an attachment and then need to recall what I sent, and I'll be on the wrong device, so I'll just find the email and download it. I guess in a convoluted way I'm just using the cloud there!

    I agree about just doing your own backing up, though, and more than one copy, too. Ideally you'd have a copy stored away from home/office as well.
  • Mark07's Avatar
    Community Manager
    [...] The Cloud, is data storage centre/s, and yes it is stocked with hundreds of very large hard drives.

    As I understand it, data centres produce large volumes of heat and use a massive amount of energy to stay cool.

    Data centres are found all over the world, but weirdly, it isn't uncommon the find them in hotter climates e.g. India, America (Nevada), Portugal etc.
  • NMNeil's Avatar
    @Mark07 Here Microsoft is reopening a nuclear reactor that closed down years ago to run it's servers, because they are that power hungry.
    https://www.npr.org/2024/09/20/nx-s1...t-microsoft-ai
  • Rolebama's Avatar
    I have a friend who could see the flicker on fluorescent tube lamps. He would often tell me that, although he could not count the flickers, he could see the difference in flicker timing. I jury-rigged a fluorescent tube, and used the probes of a multimeter in a power socket. Sure enough, every time he said the flicker changed, the multimeter would read different voltages. Voltage varied from 185 to 225volts over the day. We went to the electricity sub-station and spoke to a very genial gentleman who told us about cycle changes and predictable power draws made by the public over a normal week, summer through winter. Can't remember all the details but when popular soaps finish, there is apparently a vast draw as people put kettles on.
  • Rolebama's Avatar
    When I worked as a plant fitter, the company got a contract to dig out a lift shaft and basements, as they wanted to install servers in the basement. Whilst my company was digging, a rep from the lift company turned up to liaise. Some of the stories he told made us ask how could he carry on working in the industry. His answer was that he saw it as an occupational hazard.
  • olduser's Avatar
    Thanks @olduser!

    Is it possible for one person's data to be broken into little "pockets" and saved in lots of different data centres - hundreds, even? So, a hacked data centre wouldn't jeopardise all my stuff, they'd just get a few lines of code out of each person's content?

    I don't know if that's possible or if I'm imagining something that can't be done on a computer!!

    Another point I think's worth mentioning is I think lots of us use the cloud without realising, e.g. I'll sometimes send someone an email with an attachment and then need to recall what I sent, and I'll be on the wrong device, so I'll just find the email and download it. I guess in a convoluted way I'm just using the cloud there!

    I agree about just doing your own backing up, though, and more than one copy, too. Ideally you'd have a copy stored away from home/office as well.

    Yes, but (any) data traveling on the internet is divided into little packets with an address label at the front (send to...) and a from label on the back, there is also a a check sum added*, the packet number (say 1 of 10)

    From now until it reaches the destination this packet is handled as a one off.
    This packet leaves the sender, and goes to the users service provider's server, the check sum is used to confirm the packet is intact, the send address is used to forward it to the nearest node in the internet that has capacity available, this node (another server) does the same, by this means the packet travels the internet heading for it's destination but not necessarily on the shortest route.

    Upon arrival at it's destination the receiving computer will check the address is correct, and the data within is correct and store the package in memory waiting for the remainder to arrive. (If the address is wrong the package is put back onto the internet. If the data is incorrect a 'please resend' request is sent to the sender)

    Eventually, the receiver will collect all ten packets, the data is then extracted and assembled in the correct order, and if the checksum for the total data checks out, the receiver can make use of the data, should the total data fail the checksum a request for a total resend will be sent to the sender.

    As you can see from that simplified description the data is already in packets as it moves so in theory it could be stored in different locations.
    But just like your hard disk**, there would have to be a table giving information on what was stored where, all a hacker has to do is hack that table, and the advantage of distributing the data is lost.

    *Checksum, was literally the number of 1's or 0's in data, if the received data has the correct number of 1's or 0's then it is probably correct, certainly if it doe's not match it must be wrong.
    There are more sophisticated ways of doing this but they tend to get called checksum's.

    ** When a file is stored on a hard disk, the disk software will find the first available space on the disk write in there until it is full, and then look for the next space and fill that, and so on until all the file has been written on the disk, finally the stored data is checked against the original, the process will be repeated should the not match.
    All the while the position, file name, number of bytes will be recorded in the Contents Table.

    Interestingly, files are never deleted, when you delete a file it's position on the disk is marked as vacant in the Contents Table, and the next file saved will overwrite the deleted one.

    Defragmenting a hard drive, is a process that collects all fragments of files, and rewrites the disk with all the files complete in consecutive spaces, one after each other.
    Some of the newer large hard drives do this housekeeping automatically, whenever the computer is not using the disk.
    Last edited by olduser; 10-01-25 at 16:58.
  • olduser's Avatar
    As I understand it, data centres produce large volumes of heat and use a massive amount of energy to stay cool.

    Data centres are found all over the world, but weirdly, it isn't uncommon the find them in hotter climates e.g. India, America (Nevada), Portugal etc.

    There are some here though they belong to the banking world but there is building going on for user on the cloud.
    America had data centres first then India because so much our data ends up there anyway.
    Keeping the equipment cool uses lots of energy!
  • NMNeil's Avatar
    There are some here though they belong to the banking world but there is building going on for user on the cloud.
    America had data centres first then India because so much our data ends up there anyway.
    Keeping the equipment cool uses lots of energy!
    Add to that we have the power use of crypto mining which is so high the computers are located in cold climates to keep them cool.
    It's estimated that crypto mining uses more electricity than some entire countries.
    https://www.techopedia.com/bitcoin-m...rgy-statistics
  • olduser's Avatar
    Whenever I read about Bitcoin, I come to the age old conclusion, 'there's nowt so queer as folk'.😐
  • olduser's Avatar
    I have a friend who could see the flicker on fluorescent tube lamps. He would often tell me that, although he could not count the flickers, he could see the difference in flicker timing. I jury-rigged a fluorescent tube, and used the probes of a multimeter in a power socket. Sure enough, every time he said the flicker changed, the multimeter would read different voltages. Voltage varied from 185 to 225volts over the day. We went to the electricity sub-station and spoke to a very genial gentleman who told us about cycle changes and predictable power draws made by the public over a normal week, summer through winter. Can't remember all the details but when popular soaps finish, there is apparently a vast draw as people put kettles on.

    Sometimes, it's possible to catch the flicker by scanning a tube lengthways by moving your head, and the flicker will show at the tube ends in your peripheral vision zone.

    I think, this happens because we process moving images partially as frames, these frames fool our brain into seeing continues movement, like a movie film (film runs at 24 frames per sec).
    I think, our frame rate is 30 - 60 fps, anyway the combination of head movement and scanning rate means we can have a frame with the tube on and a frame with the tube off.

    The above is a very simplified summery of our vision, in fact our vision processing uses many tricks to minimize the amount of processing involved.
  • Rolebama's Avatar
    @olduser As far as I am aware, most packets are 300Kb, so relatively tiny, but easier to handle, and faster to check destination arrival.
  • NMNeil's Avatar
    Whenever I read about Bitcoin, I come to the age old conclusion, 'there's nowt so queer as folk'.😐
    And P. T. Barnum's observation that "There's a sucker born every minute"
  • olduser's Avatar
    Rolebama, I don't recall a standard size as such but as you suggest there will be a trade-off between ease of transportation, and processing time.
    The address labels used to be to the IPv4 standard 32 bit but these have been replaced by the IPv6 standard 128 bits.
    So each packet has to have twice the address plus check sum plus a time signature*, packet index (1 of x) even if there were no data, so there needs to be sufficient date included to make it worthwhile.

    If I remember correctly IPv4 was replaced by IPv6 around 2020 to enable more IP addresses to be created, apparently we (the world) had runout of IP addresses with v4!
    Everyone would have had their software updated to accommodate the new larger addresses.

    I am recalling stuff as I type, the data size is negotiated, I think, at the first handshake, that will be sender to internet provider.

    Sender - I have data to send
    IP Server - How much?
    Sender - X bytes
    IP Server - Make packet size Y bytes.
    Sender - X bytes in Y sized packets in Z packets are you ready?
    IP Server - OK send one packet and wait.
    Sender - Sent first Z = Z-1 waiting.
    Last two steps repeated until all are sent.

    *Time Signature - a number containing date and time of creation of the package.
    This is used to prevent the accumulation of orphan packets (lost packets that have no where to go)
    Any packets that is on the internet longer than a certain time (several times greater than the expected time to circumnavigate the internet) are deemed to be orphans, and they are destroyed., otherwise the net would eventually fill up with orphans.
    Orphans include, corrupt addresses, broken packets, and destination computers off line.
    If possible, the sender will be advised it was not sent or the IP's server will hold the message until the senders computer can receive the message.

    The only standard I can recall is Ethernet has or had a preferred size of 1500 bytes per frame. (frame roughly = internet packet)

    I need a cup of tea now.