[An0nym0us5369]

So at a junction near me there is a toucan crossing, pelican styled (on a junction).

In this situation I am crossing the main street.

The traffic on one side is stationary as someone is waiting to turn right once the opposite side is clear. At this time the signal (for cars) is green and 2 cars are waiting behind. (Past the stop line) The signal (for cars) changes to red. The car waiting to turn right turns. The green man and green bicycle for me on the main road comes on and the two cars past the stop line that were waiting behind the car that turned right drive through while I have a green man and green bicycle showing.

Are these drivers breaking the law?

Appreciate any response.

[TC1474]

Short answer is "Yes" they commit the offence of failing to conform to an obligatory traffic signal.

Once the stop line has been crossed the offence is committed.

[Rolebama]

Queueing traffic should also leave yjr crossing clear.

[An0nym0us5369]

@TC1474 Thank you for your reply. I get what you mean. But they were already past the stop line before the signal changed.

I asked the highway codes AI bot and it said that when the green man & bicycle are showing pedestrians and cyclists have the right of way and they are committing an offence by failing to give right of way. In a second paragraph it said drivers "should" not drive through meaning that should is only advisory.

I'm not sure if it means if no pedestrians and cyclists are waiting it isn't illegal to drive through. But I have been waiting before and cars look at me waiting and see the green man and bicycle showing and drive through.

I later contacted the council and I am waiting for a response.

[TC1474]

@An0nym0us5369 Even past the stop line they commit the offence as drivers should anticipate the possibility of the lights changing and therefore hang back and keep the crossing clear at all times.

In other words they should only cross over the line when the other side of the crossing is clear.

There is no such thing as an advisory obligatory traffic signal. A Pelican/Toucan crossing controlled by lights are obligatory and if the green man is showing, the traffic lights will be displaying red and that is a mandatory "Stop" light.

On a zebra crossing which has no lights, if someone crosses over the crossing when a pedestrian is waiting, the offence is only committed once the pedestrian actually places one foot on the actual crossing and then the offence of "Failing to accord precedence to pedestrians on a pedestrian crossing" is committed.

Hope that helps?

[Beelzebub]

Originally Posted by An0nym0us5369

@TC1474 Thank you for your reply. I get what you mean. But they were already past the stop line before the signal changed.

I asked the highway codes AI bot and it said that when the green man & bicycle are showing pedestrians and cyclists have the right of way and they are committing an offence by failing to give right of way.

Where did you find this "highway codes AI bot"?

The REAL Highway Code is very clear: "The rules in The Highway Code do not give you the right of way in any circumstance,"

[An0nym0us5369]

Originally Posted by Beelzebub

Where did you find this "highway codes AI bot"?

The REAL Highway Code is very clear: "The rules in The Highway Code do not give you the right of way in any circumstance,"

On the highway codes website there is an AI thing that pops up saying how can I help you so I tried to see what it would say.

The highway code says while the green man and bicycle are showing pedestrians and cyclists have the right of way. Not vehicles.

[Beelzebub]

Originally Posted by An0nym0us5369

On the highway codes website there is an AI thing that pops up saying how can I help you so I tried to see what it would say.

The highway code says while the green man and bicycle are showing pedestrians and cyclists have the right of way. Not vehicles.

No, it doesn't.

I may be wrong, but I don't think you've found that 'bot' on the official Highway Code website https://www.gov.uk/browse/driving/hi...de-road-safety

Whic Rule

[An0nym0us5369]

On highwaycodeuk.co.uk it says:

"It sounds like the drivers are not adhering to the rules regarding stop lines and pedestrian crossings. According to the Highway Code, drivers must stop at the stop line when the traffic light is red. If a vehicle is waiting to turn and the light changes, the following vehicles should not proceed until the light is green again for them.


When the green man is showing, it indicates that pedestrians have the right of way, and vehicles should not be moving through the crossing. If this is a frequent issue, it might be worth reporting to local traffic authorities to ensure the safety of pedestrians.


Stay safe, and I hope this situation improves soon!"

I have contacted the council and I'm waiting for a response.
I put some of the text in bold to show the points I previously mentioned.

Must not is the law and should not is advisory.

[Beelzebub]

Originally Posted by An0nym0us5369

On highwaycodeuk.co.uk it says:

.

That website is run by an organisation called drivinged, which appears to be a driving instructor in Yorkshire, who doesn't appear to have a spelling checker.

. It is NOT the official government site

To see what the HC actually says you have to go https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code.

[An0nym0us5369]

I have just noticed that isn't the official site but I'm not aware of any rules in the highway code that say drivers must not drive through in this situation. Thank you for the correction.

I will see what the council say to my enquiry and I will negotiate it with them. If they make any changes the toucan crossing I will post it here.

[TC1474]

Originally Posted by An0nym0us5369

I have just noticed that isn't the official site but I'm not aware of any rules in the highway code that say drivers must not drive through in this situation. Thank you for the correction.

I will see what the council say to my enquiry and I will negotiate it with them. If they make any changes the toucan crossing I will post it here.

I am sorry, but have I missed something? What do you expect the council to do?

Forget the Highway Code they are generic rules of the road and is advice in the main. If it says "Must Not" it will have the Act, section or regulation in red to support that rule as law.

Complying with an automatic traffic signal comes under the Road Traffic Act and is mandatory

[An0nym0us5369]

Originally Posted by TC1474

I am sorry, but have I missed something? What do you expect the council to do?

Forget the Highway Code they are generic rules of the road and is advice in the main. If it says "Must Not" it will have the Act, section or regulation in red to support that rule as law.

Complying with an automatic traffic signal comes under the Road Traffic Act and is mandatory

I will discuss what solutions there could be to this such as installing sensors that will only change the signal once the crossing is clear. Or even just changing the timings that it gives you to cross. As it is dangerous I'm worried someone blind could feel the tactile cone spinning and could step into the carriageway. It's not rare that cars are driving through the entire time the green man and bicycle are showing. Even when there is lots of people waiting. Then you have to press the button again and hope the same thing doesn't happen.

As of right now there is only sensors that monitor cars in the side street and none that monitor pedestrians and cyclists and if the crossing is clear.

[TC1474]

@An0nym0us5369 Well good luck with that.

If you get a result, it will be a first, but don't hold your breath....

[olduser]

I don't have a crossing nearby to check but I would expect there will be a period in the control system when both cars and pedestrians are shown a stop signal.

As a driver, I would be looking for people who are waiting, if so I have to assume the crossing may be about to change.

As a pedestrian, even if the crossing is telling me to cross, I still check to see the road is clear.
Blind people, make much more use of hearing than sighted people, that's how they will check the road is clear before moving off.

As has mentioned above, the law is absolute, but as in most laws there are grey areas to be adjudicated in court.

As traffic has got denser, more drivers are just following the car in front, increasing the chances of them being on or very near the stop line as the signal changes, they then are surprised and and fail to stop.

They have broken the law but I would rather wait on the footpath than get in their way!

[Beelzebub]

Originally Posted by olduser

I don't have a crossing nearby to check but I would expect there will be a period in the control system when both cars and pedestrians are shown a stop signal.

As a driver, I would be looking for people who are waiting, if so I have to assume the crossing may be about to change.

As a pedestrian, even if the crossing is telling me to cross, I still check to see the road is clear.
Blind people, make much more use of hearing than sighted people, that's how they will check the road is clear before moving off.

As has mentioned above, the law is absolute, but as in most laws there are grey areas to be adjudicated in court.

As traffic has got denser, more drivers are just following the car in front, increasing the chances of them being on or very near the stop line as the signal changes, they then are surprised and and fail to stop.

They have broken the law but I would rather wait on the footpath than get in their way!

From the OP's description, I suspect that this is NOT a pedestrian crossing (Pelican, Toucan, etc), but a pedestruian phase in the junction lights system

A big difference is that the latter does not have a stop line. The only stop line that the driver has to obey is the one on the approach to the junction. If he crossed that on green, no traffic light offence was committed.

Having said that, he has a duty of care towards the peds, and could commit careless or even dangerous driving. Conversely, the pedestrian should ascertain it is safe before starting to crossi, though it seems few actually do.