[TB90]

Hello everybody.

First time poster here looking for some help with an unpleasant situation.

I have been struggling to procure a driving licence since 2011, over a third of my life. Due to issues with anxiety, burnout, and financial issues this has not been a consistent thing, there were many stops and starts. I struggled to pass the theory test for many years before finally doing so in 2018. Unfortunately the first year for which my theory test was valid was wasted due to having a very bad driving instructor with whom I went nowhere.

In the first months of 2020 things seemed to be coming together, I had a couple of tests which I failed for reasons that were very definitely my fault; I hoped the third time would be the charm - and indeed everything appeared to be going as planned on my third test.

Unfortunately for me, this test occurred during Storm Dennis and while the rain was not cataclysmic, it did result in a large number of puddles forming on uneven road surfaces.

My test appeared to have gone well, I received a few minors due to nerves, but nothing serious.

However, a mere 60 seconds before returning to the test centre I went through a narrow tunnel under a railway bridge; the tunnel is only single-lane but is well equipped with traffic lights so does not usually cause problems. As I exited the tunnel, there was an extremely large, deep, murky puddle. Knowing these can be hazardous, for instance they could conceal obstacles such as uncovered manholes, I gently steered around it; my speed was below 30 so it was easy to do so.

My examiner tapped his hand on the steering wheel; he did not take control of the car, he just touched the wheel, and used that as grounds to mark a serious fault, and thus a failure.

Upon parking at the test centre he refused to explain his actions or tell me what I should have done instead; he just chanted "you were erratic" ceaselessly, it was clear I was not going to get any response out of him so I allowed my instructor to take me home - my nerves were such that I just wanted to get home and did not feel in a fit state to drive.

I promptly booked another test, however this was cancelled due to lockdown. My theory test ran out 24 hours before tests were allowed to be booked again.

I had a medical emergency necessitating a week in hospital in December 2020, meaning I was not able to attempt to begin rebuilding for some time.

In 2022 I finally managed to pass the theory test again, but financial issues meant I was not able to book a practical test until mid 2023.

I decided to take the next test at a different test centre, hoping the new one would be freer of defects in the road surface which could jeopardize my chances.

Once again, the test appeared to be going well; in terms of minors I was well within the acceptable parameters; the weather was much better on this occasion also; being very bright and warm.

However things unravelled on approaching a traffic light; the light genuinely appeared to be on red to me; as such I brought the car to a halt at the light. The examiner then demanded I go; acting as though the light was very clearly green. I am not colourblind, and each of the lights was visible; the red appeared to be the brightest, so I was placed into an uncomfortable situation which felt like gaslighting.

I obeyed the examiner however, and proceeded. On return to the test centre he point blank refused to say why he marked me down as "stopping at a green light", he merely said "I can't discuss that with you" and refused to say what he had expected me to do. To this day I do not know whether the traffic light was faulty or not, the lack of any engagement or rationalization at all on the examiner's part weighs heavily on my mind.

I suffered a mild nervous breakdown as a result of this "failure", and at present I do not know what to do; my window of opportunity to pass before my theory test runs out is closing and I am sick and tired of it all.

I have poured 13 years of my life and thousands of pounds into this, and I feel the effort was for naught - I feel as though I have been victimized by the DVSA for reasons I cannot even begin to understand and I am disillusioned and cynical; some days I feel like the entire process is an outright scam for the purposes of making money.

What was I supposed to do in these two situations? They feel like Catch-22s.

I'm genuinely at my wit's end and hope I can find some words of advice here.

[Santa]

I usually like to give practical advice, but after reading your post, I wonder if you should give up your ambition to get behind the wheel.

Even experienced drivers get confused by conflicting signals and other drivers' bad behaviour, and it's tricky to balance confidence and caution. It's a rare individual who doesn't get nervous when being tested, but driving examiners operate under strict rules and you shouldn't blame them for your mistakes.

Owning and running a car is very expensive these days and you should carefully consider whether this is the best solution to whatever transport needs you have.

I am sorry I can't be more positive but after 13 years, it's maybe time to give up.

[Mark07]

@TB90 I think that obstacles are there to be overcome, and from what you've described, you can drive...the challenge is passing the test.

I shared this advice for leaners the other day, I hope you find it useful.

[Drivingforfun]

I’m saying this as someone who has a handful of health conditions myself so am not intending to sound un-empathetic… but, while merely having disability or health conditions rarely prevents someone from legally driving, it’s also the case that disabled drivers get no special lenience or handicap. At the end of the day everyone is expected to be able to drive to a certain standard - if you can’t then you can’t - it doesn’t really matter why


I would say that not all driving examiners are how you describe so maybe it’s worth persevering. My examiner was very calming and actually tried to start light conversations with me while I was doing my test. She also found it amusing when I kept forgetting her instructions, putting this down to nerves, and was happy to remind me of these. At the end of the test when I was told I’d passed she pointed out my 2 “minors” and explained in good detail why I clocked these up to make sure I was aware and hopefully learn from these

[TB90]

@Santa You appear to have missed the main point I was trying to make; that I do not believe the two failures I described to have been my fault.

The puddle one was particularly frustrating, because there was -nothing- I could have done which would have made the examiner happy; it was a situation in which no reasonable person could have passed.

When examiners set up situations in which failure is guaranteed no matter how good or experienced of a driver one is, this brings their reputation as a profession into considerable doubt.

To all intents and purposes I can drive - I did not mention the test failures I had where I accept it was my fault, only those in which I do not believe anybody would have been able to pass.

[Santa]

Originally Posted by TB90

The puddle one was particularly frustrating, because there was -nothing- I could have done which would have made the examiner happy; it was a situation in which no reasonable person could have passed.

The situation you describe is naturally from your, somewhat aggrieved, perspective.

Examiners have no quotas or any incentives to pass or fail applicants. The test is designed to include a number of situations - right turns, roundabouts, junctions, etc and how you deal with these is important. As well as the set pieces, the examiner will assess how you deal with whatever situation the traffic and road conditions throw up.

Obviously, your examiner considered how you dealt with "an extremely large, deep, murky puddle" was not in their opinion, the best way. You disagree but to suggest that this happened because there is some conspiracy to prevent you from passing a test smacks of the paranoid.

I wasn't there and only have your description to go on, but maybe the examiner considered that you should have slowed down more.

Incidentally, examiners are not allowed to discuss details of why you failed.

[TB90]

@Santa I come here looking for help, and get a load of guff.

I said nothing alleging quotas or incentives, the fact you brought them up speaks of perhaps over keenness to deny such allegations. The lady doth protest too much.

[Mdb51]

Hi TB90

I had something mildly similar to your situation back in 2003, my 1st test was done with my driving instructor riding in the back. The examiner put me off during the test because he wanted me to do a bit of 50 mph dual carriageway driving.

There were 2 issues here, the 1st was whilst changing down to 3rd from 4th, the gearbox wouldn't go in so I ended up freewheeling a bit and my steering was wavering a bit and he grabbed the wheel to straighten me up, both serious marks.

Why I said he put me off was because during the drive, he engaged me in conversation, examiners do this because they want to see if a candidate will end up taking their eyes off the road ( an immediate fail if it happens ). The problem was although I didn't take my eyes off the road, I could feel his glare boring into the side of my head and out of the corner of my eye I saw him glaring at me.

My instructor also noticed and was absolutely not happy because in my instructor's words "the drive was going well until the examiner did that because it threw you off completely" ( exact quote from my instructor remembered 21 years later ).

My 2nd test was far better, the examiner immediately made me feel more relaxed and with 6 minor marks ( maximum of 15 allowed unless it has changed ) I passed in July 2003. I would recommend doing a few mock tests with your instructor and show him or her where you had the problems and with any luck they should be able to help.

[Beelzebub]

Originally Posted by Santa

Incidentally, examiners are not allowed to discuss details of why you failed.

While examiners are instructed not to discuss the test in detail, they should explain the faults. Their instructions say "At the end of a test the examiner should offer the candidate a brief explanation of the faults marked on the DL25. This de-brief should aim to give the candidate a `word picture’ of their driving, including all serious and dangerous faults recorded and a selection of repeated driving faults. If a candidate fails on an accumulation of more than 15 driving faults then all the faults need explaining."

[Beelzebub]

Originally Posted by Mdb51

Hi TB90

Why I said he put me off was because during the drive, he engaged me in conversation, examiners do this because they want to see if a candidate will end up taking their eyes off the road ( an immediate fail if it happens ). The problem was although I didn't take my eyes off the road, I could feel his glare boring into the side of my head and out of the corner of my eye I saw him glaring at me.

I have sat in on dozens of tests, and have never heard of this. Examiners generally chat a bit, simply to try to put you at ease, but some are better at this than others. There are lots of "old wife's tales" about the test, but this is a new one on me.

Rather than glaring at you, he would have been watching you to see where you were looking.

[Mdb51]

Rather surprisingly, when I failed to pass both my 1st car and 1st bus tests, I was surprised that the examiner did tell me why I didn't pass when I did my car test.

The examiner for my 1st bus test didn't tell me himself, he got me to tell him why I thought I had failed.

On my 1st bus test, I was leaving the test centre in Knowsley ( Liverpool ), the examiner asked me to turn right. A cyclist had just passed the test centre heading in the same direction, I hung back to give the rider some room and not feel intimidated by me. An opportunity to overtake presented itself which I duly did. Up ahead was an S bend going right then left, coming the opposite way was a van followed by an articulated HGV on deliveries. I moved left as much as I could and watched my mirrors as they passed but I ended up badly whacking the kerb such that the front wheel went up on the kerb, no pedestrians were present when it happened.

Consequently, long story short, when we returned to the test centre after a 1 hour drive, the examiner said to me "I'm not going to tell you myself, but can you tell me why I cannot pass you today?", I looked at him and said 1 word "Kerb" and instantly he nodded, however, he did also say that had it not been for the kerb incident, even 12 minors out of 15, I would have passed.

Needless to say when the 2nd test came around, the examiner on this occasion was the head of the test centre. He took me the opposite direction to my 1st test and after about 50 minutes we were on the M57 heading back to the test centre. Upon arrival he said to me "I'm not going to beat around the bush, congratulations you have passed with 4 minors" and oddly enough, he did explain them.

I was happy with my result as when my brother did his bus test, he ended up with 5 minors. The company which got me my licence later gave me a job but also they had a competition to see who could come back with the lowest number of minor faults, my 2nd bus test put me at the top of the table but I never found out if anybody beat me with less than 4 minors.

Re my 1st car test, when my instructor made the appointment for my 2nd test, he mentioned what had happened during my 1st test and it turned out that the incident where the examiner put me off was not the 1st time he'd done it, apparently he'd done the same to several other candidates aswell.

[Mark07]

Originally Posted by Mdb51

Rather surprisingly, when I failed to pass both my 1st car and 1st bus tests, I was surprised that the examiner did tell me why I didn't pass when I did my car test.

The examiner for my 1st bus test didn't tell me himself, he got me to tell him why I thought I had failed.

That's a nice approach taken by the bus test examiner, though I can imagine it wouldn't work with everyone.

Also, I wonder if those initial setbacks made you a better driver in the longrun.

[Mdb51]

The failures did help me to focus on where I went wrong but in terms of the bust test, the primary information to remember is the vehicle dimensions as they are longer than cars but also roughly the same width as trucks.

I found that problems could arise whilst being in the process of adapting to the new width when I was learning on the bus, this is because you have to focus on knowing when to turn the steering wheel when turning in order to make sure you don't run over the kerb ( a cardinal sin in the large vehicle world ).

The reason is that you need more room to turn so you have to go a bit further before turning but also at the same time, be aware of vehicles which may be approaching or at the end of the road you're turning into or out of because some drivers absolutely refuse to give the required room for buses and other large vehicles to turn.

I did have a very near miss whilst out in service on a Sunday morning in November 2007. I was on a bus route just taking it nice and easy as it was a frosty morning whilst approaching a set of traffic lights crissing a main road.

The lights were green and even though I was doing about 25 mph as they had just turned green for me, I preceeded to set about crossing the main road.

What I did not expect was for a black car where the driver was the boyfriend of the vehicle owner to turn accross me forcing me to ham the brakes on. The bus stopped level right with the end of the road, the car driver waved at me to thank me for not killing the pair of them but his girlfriend was absolutely cacking herself. What the driver didn't see was a police car on thd main road I was about to cross which saw the entire incident.

The girlfriend and 1 of the officers came to make sure I was ok as I was shaking like a leaf in the cab the other officer went to speak to the boyfriend. I was totally shocked when I heard over the radio of the officer who came to get a statement from me over what happened, that the boyfriend had only passed his car test 2 weeks earlier on his 4th or 5th attempt.

When I heard that, I duly advised the girlfriend to take over driving the car and not to let him behind the wheel again to which she fully agreed. I also showed her the details of the vehicle weight on the side of the bus which was 7,500 Kg ( 7.5 tons unladen ), every 15 passengers that board a bus adds 1 ton to the weight. The bus could take 60 pasengers when full so fully loaded it would be roughly about 11,500 Kg ( 11.5 tons ) and in a situation like that, had I hit them that day, I think my licence would have been returned to the DVLA never to be used again.

The outcome was that the girlfriend ended up finishing with her fella after that because she didn't want to be with someone who was dangerous on the road, the now ex boyfriend was charged with dangerous driving, fined £2,700 and was given 6 points on his licence ( an immediate disqualification since 2002 ).

To everyone who is learning may I offer the following advice :

Enjoy the freedom of driving but beware, holding a licence is a privilege granted by the DVLA but it can & will be withdrawn if you commit driving offences deemed to be too dangerous to warrant being allowed to drive. If you gain 6 points or more within your first 2 years of driving after passing your test, your licence will be suspended or you will be disqualified from driving for a period by a court.

Overall, don't let my posts frighten you but view them as what not to do on the road, driving should be pleasurable and safe not reckless and dangerous.

Stay safe on the roads and please keep to the posted speeds and please, don't tailgate other vehicles to bully other drivers to get out of your way, we're all trying to get to our respective destinations and don't need other drivers causing us hassle just because they're in a hurry.

Be careful and stay safe.