[Marc]

An interesting opinion piece I spotted over the long weekend about the environmental impact of EVs.

This is of course a pretty big debate - how 'green' are EVs in reality? It's a debate happening in a lot of Western societies.

This article/column by John Naughton of The Observer is quite challenging reading for anyone who owns an EV.

While it does well to highlight some of downsides/issues with EVs, I think it lacks some balance because it doesn't list any of the downsides/issues of petrol and diesel cars.

But, what I do like about it is that the author is an EV driver. And he's sort of 'fessing up' to his own concerns about things like the mining of lithium and cobalt.

One detail about the 'break even point' of driving a Tesla 3 in terms of offsetting the carbon impact. He states it's 8,000 miles as though that's high. I think that's pretty low and to be celebrated. Unless I've misunderstood something!

[Drivingforfun]

8,000 miles seems pretty good to me.

Also we have to remember even if the first owner doesn't do enough miles to justify the EV (in carbon terms), it is highly likely there will be subsequent owners and the vehicle will eventually "pay" for itself!

[Rolebama]

An interesting read. Some years ago, but not that many, a guy went on TV and stated that his old 1955 V8, which he still uses, in both its construction and the 250,00+ miles he has driven, would not equate to the amount of carbon the building and destruction of an EV produces. Noone challennged him at the time, and as far as I know, still hasn't. As to the loss of llfe involved in the mining and processing of the heavy metals used in EVs, most countries have safety laws covering the production of ICE vehicles. Still, like many aspects of modern life, if groups shout loud enough and long enough, they will gain credibility, and if reality doesn't bear out their beliefs, they ignore it.

[Santa]

Originally Posted by Rolebama

Some years ago, but not that many, a guy went on TV and stated that his old 1955 V8, which he still uses, in both its construction and the 250,00+ miles he has driven, would not equate to the amount of carbon the building and destruction of an EV produces.

I guess because it would be far too complicated and I doubt very much that "the guy" had really calculated all of the impacts his car has made. I wonder if he still uses leaded petrol?

[Beelzebub]

Volvo published a report comparing one of their EVs with the IC equivalent. That gave a figure of 68,000 miles before the EV showed lower total emissions. https://www.carscoops.com/2021/11/vo...ol-equivalent/

Maybe Tesla's 8,000 mile is a typo?

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Beelzebub

Volvo published a report comparing one of their EVs with the IC equivalent. That gave a figure of 68,000 miles before the EV showed lower total emissions. https://www.carscoops.com/2021/11/vo...ol-equivalent/

Maybe Tesla's 8,000 mile is a typo?

Or maybe the Tesla is more efficient in how it sources parts and how it builds their EVs? Compared to Volvo. 60,000 miles is quite a lot though

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Drivingforfun

8,000 miles seems pretty good to me.

Also we have to remember even if the first owner doesn't do enough miles to justify the EV (in carbon terms), it is highly likely there will be subsequent owners and the vehicle will eventually "pay" for itself!

That's true. Choosing second-hand EVs has to be a good thing. Not that many around though @Drivingforfun I guess the market isn't mature enough? Give it another 5 years?

[Rolebama]

Santa, I do appreciate that referring to "the guy" does sound far-fetched, but he was a person of reputation, I just can't remember his name. It was around 2018/19 and I do agree that the technology may well be better now.

I am not sure about any of these mileage claims. Autocar showed a round trip from London to Leeds cost more in an EV that a petrol, accepting that they used public charging points and that was before the price hike last year, coupled with the extra initial cost of the EV version. On top of this the Govt are now talking of charging VED, with the possibility of the £4,500 to £5,000 surcharge on a car over £40,000.

All-in-all, as Marc says above: Give it another 5 years? That is, of course, if there are still enough materials available to make them.

[NMNeil]

@Marc The mining of said metals that has occurred for many years to make batteries for cell phones, power tools, laptops etc. is OK, but somehow it's not OK for EV batteries.

[Marc]

Originally Posted by NMNeil

@Marc The mining of said metals that has occurred for many years to make batteries for cell phones, power tools, laptops etc. is OK, but somehow it's not OK for EV batteries.

Strange that, isn't it @NMNeil ? I wonder if people who didn't have smartphones way, way back were unhappy with those that did, for the same reason? 🤔
Either way I suppose the battery material supply is finite. Unless we do make it to another planet!

[Rolebama]

I believe that there will come a time when we can recycle batteries for the rarer minerals used. I know I must have quite a collection across phones, laptops, tablets and my RC model batteries. Although as battery technonogy advances we may find a use for more abundant elements. Or maybe the hydrogen car problems may be resolved?

[Santa]

@Rolebama

The IEA [International Energy Agency ] estimates that by 2040, recycled copper, lithium, nickel, and cobalt from spent batteries alone could provide for 10% of the demand for these minerals. The Worldwide Wildlife Fund says recycling could potentially supply 20% of total mineral demand between 2022 and 2050.

https://earth911.com/eco-tech/recycl...ew%20batteries.

[Rolebama]

Thanks for that, Santa.

[NMNeil]

One thing that has not been addressed is the potential environmental impact of repairing EV's.
Imagine in a few years someone has a 5th hand Tesla which has a problem, and they can't afford to take it to the dealership. So they take it to the closest 'mechanic' working out of his house/van/railway arch. And this mechanic has absolutely no idea what he's doing, but he's willing to "have a go" on a car that has a battery pack with enough power to kill him instantly, and possibly burn down the house/van/railway arch.
Going to take government intervention and mechanic licensing to make everyone safe I'm afraid.

[Beelzebub]

Originally Posted by NMNeil

One thing that has not been addressed is the potential environmental impact of repairing EV's.
Imagine in a few years someone has a 5th hand Tesla which has a problem, and they can't afford to take it to the dealership. So they take it to the closest 'mechanic' working out of his house/van/railway arch. And this mechanic has absolutely no idea what he's doing, but he's willing to "have a go" on a car that has a battery pack with enough power to kill him instantly, and possibly burn down the house/van/railway arch.
Going to take government intervention and mechanic licensing to make everyone safe I'm afraid.

Darwinism?

[Marc]

Originally Posted by NMNeil

One thing that has not been addressed is the potential environmental impact of repairing EV's.
Imagine in a few years someone has a 5th hand Tesla which has a problem, and they can't afford to take it to the dealership. So they take it to the closest 'mechanic' working out of his house/van/railway arch. And this mechanic has absolutely no idea what he's doing, but he's willing to "have a go" on a car that has a battery pack with enough power to kill him instantly, and possibly burn down the house/van/railway arch.
Going to take government intervention and mechanic licensing to make everyone safe I'm afraid.

Interesting point @NMNeil
Don't EV mechanics already exist? Or do you have to take to a dealer?
(I used to drive a Nissan Leaf but it was via a lease, so any servicing was arranged via the leasing company, as per terms and conditions.)

[Rolebama]

I know of some that have to go to 'specialized' dealers for repair and basic servicing. But that's only if you want it to run correctly afterwards.
FWIW: Back in the late 90s, every Rover Sterling and Honda Legend I came across was running in 'limp-home- mode because of problems which the owner wasn't aware of, not the local garage.