[RhiRhi]

So I passed my test two weeks ago, and have been really enjoying driving around until today.

I was approaching a roundabout, which had three filter lanes. When I was learning I was taught to use the left lane on roundabouts like this if I wanted to turn off before 12 o'clock, the middle lane if I was going straight ahead and the right lane for turnings after 12 o'clock. Today, I wanted to go straight on, so I entered the roundabout in the middle lane. Visuals here:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=hend...=12,17.56,,0,5

As I passed the junction to my left, I checked my mirrors and indicated to show that I was turning left. As I started coming off the roundabout in the left lane of the dual carriageway, a car appeared to the left of me. Because of the angle of driving off a roundabout, there wasn't room for the both of us in the one lane so my reaction was to slow right down immediately, almost to a stop, and he drove past giving me the middle finger and mouthing what I can only assume what was a torrent of abuse. I was shocked because when I checked my mirrors before I signalled, he wasn't behind me or coming out of the junction to the left- there were no other cars around, so I'm guessing he was driving at a fair speed.

Not only did this really shake me up, but the fact that HE was swearing at ME has made me doubt my own driving know-how/lane discipline. I was just after a bit of advice really- did I do anything wrong to warrant his manouver and subsequent abuse, or did I just run into one of the road's many idiots a little early into my driving life? It's a route I went over plenty of times when I was learning and ever since, so if it was my mistake I want to be sure that I don't make it again.

[Rolebama]

Sorry to say your link doesn't show a roundabout.
I don't really think it matters where the other car came from, only that you didn't see it's approach to the roundabout. It may well be that he was going too fast for the circumstances, and that is very common today. After a while, you will grow 'eyes in the back of your head', and develop the skills that will make you more aware of what is going on around you. As to the abuse and gesture, there is a section of motorists who seem to use this instead of indicators or common sense.

[wagolynn]

Reading your post, in principle I agree with Rolebama but I would add the following points.
1) Always monitor the appropriate mirror when changing or about to change lanes.
2) Have another look at how your mirrors are set – I have my interior mirror set so it is in my peripheral vision. Outside mirrors are often adjust so the sides of the car are visible and for reversing, reset so the sides are just not visible, turn in your seat to reverse.
3) Develop a thick skin – driving brings out the worst in many people they probably throw their toys out of their prams as well.
4) As with any incident on the road, do not worry about what they did wrong - work out what you can do to prevent being involved next time, e.g this time you did not see the other vehicle, why, did he come in from your left?
5) You can give yourself a pat on the back, you did have the sense to give way rather than fight for position.

[RhiRhi]

In response to wagolynn's point 4- I went over the same route today, and drove round the roundabout in exactly the same way as I did yesterday and I'm sure that I did so correctly both times.

As I approached the left junction there was nobody waiting to come out and there was nobody behind me, same when I did my mirror-signal-manouver as I passed the left junction and again when I checked my mirror to start coming off the roundabout. The other car just seemed to appear to the left of me as I was coming off, so I can only assume he came from the left junction at a high speed, didn't see me and then didn't have time to stop when he DID see me.

I've thought it over, and going over the roundabout again today has reassured me that I did everything correctly- I think, as wagolynn said, I just need to develop a thicker skin!

Thanks both for the advice :) I'm waiting on my pass plus course so hopefully that will help with the confidence/thicker skin.

[Watcher]

Lookout

The problem might be the way you have been taught - do this, then do that, then look, then do this, etc. You need to be looking all around, all the time - scanning your mirrors should not be a separate special action, but more or less continuous.

[smudger]

Quote "so if it was my mistake I want to be sure that I don't make it again."

It wasn't a mistake on your part at all, if you hadn't slowed down as you did, there is every chance he would crashed into you!
As on here we read similar posts like that quite often.

As mentioned earlier, you will be "more aware" of other such motorists as you go on.

At roundabouts and junctions you need, and will attain a 6th sense, which makes you scan all around you before entering, don't worry about the Gesture, our roads are full of such idiots.;)

[Georgeand Ade]

Having looked at your picture of the junction,I think that both the left and middle lane is for travelling across the roundabout(as indicated by the white arrows pointing forward).
Although you had every right to use the "middle" lane,I would have suggested that if there was no traffic in the nearside lane,that would have been the one I would have used.

[snapdragon]

I would not use the middle lane to go straight on, unless there were vehicles in the left lane that I wanted to pass.

I have also had near misses on rare occasions over the years where people in the left hand lane have wanted to turn right! and just cut in front as you are about to exit in the middle lane. If you are in the left lane, it will negate this risk.

[wagolynn]

Originally Posted by snapdragon

I would not use the middle lane to go straight on, unless there were vehicles in the left lane that I wanted to pass.

Never ever overtake on a roundabout; you are increasing the risk of a crash beyond a sensible level, time is never that important.

[Beelzebub]

When you were taught about lanes on approach, you should have been made aware of the caveat in the Highway Code "unless signs or markings indicate otherwise".

In this case, on the approach to the roundabout there are two lanes marked for "ahead", i.e exit 2. Whichever one of these you take, you need to be aware of the other one and keep to your lane. If you take the middle lane, i.e. the right-hand of the two "ahead" lanes , then you should be going into the outside lane on the new road, which is why the other driver was upset.

[smudger]

The amount of times that I've been "undertook" while leaving a roundabout is unreal. Its got to the stage now where I even expect it to happen.

One thing I've noticed is the folk who do it, are the ones who sit right on your back bumper, overtake and change lanes with no signals?

Yet they are the same ones that you pull up behind when you reach the next roundabout:confused:;)

[Rolebama]

I am not sure what you mean, Smudger. I leave roundabouts from the nearside lane, so cannot be undertaken. I get into the left hand lane at the last exit before the one I take. (Generally when turning right, if I am going left or straight ahead, I stick to the nearside lane through the roundabout.)

[smudger]

Ah! sorry about that Roelbama, I should have said, its a two lane roundabout, one of three that I have to go though to get to the shopping centre.

I come off on the right hand lane, as I have to turn right a few yards further along that road, (after leaving the roundabout), and they come up on the inside, then cut right in front of you, it happens quite a lot and not just to me?:confused:

[Rolebama]

RIght you are, Smudger, we have two roundabouts on the A40 where people have the same problem. One in Ickenham, one in Denham. I have seen instances of people coming off in left hand lane and swerving across two lanes to get to the 'protected' right turns just off the roundabout to 'undertake' those already in the correct lane for their turn.

[wagolynn]

Originally Posted by RhiRhi

In response to wagolynn's point 4- I went over the same route today, and drove round the roundabout in exactly the same way as I did yesterday and I'm sure that I did so correctly both times.

As I approached the left junction there was nobody waiting to come out and there was nobody behind me, same when I did my mirror-signal-manouver as I passed the left junction and again when I checked my mirror to start coming off the roundabout. The other car just seemed to appear to the left of me as I was coming off, so I can only assume he came from the left junction at a high speed, didn't see me and then didn't have time to stop when he DID see me.

I've thought it over, and going over the roundabout again today has reassured me that I did everything correctly- I think, as wagolynn said, I just need to develop a thicker skin!

Thanks both for the advice :) I'm waiting on my pass plus course so hopefully that will help with the confidence/thicker skin.

I am afraid I must disagree with you, you cannot have done everything correctly otherwise you would not have been involved.
Roundabouts are very dangerous places simply because of the disparity between what should happen and what actually happens.
Your 'mistake' was to expect that by driving by the book you would be safe. Looking in mirrors, looking into roads leading onto the roundabout, assessing what other vehicles are doing (as opposed to what they signal or lane markings suggest) has to be a continues process.
Sorry to sound so harsh, that is not my intention.
See point 4 in post#3 above (there is usually a way). The logic being, I cannot do anything about the errant ways of other drivers but I can keep out of their way.

[mrsflump]

I'm an advanced motorist, been driving almost 40yrs now and taught for a while and touch wood have never had an accident.

Unless it's changed since I took my test and advanced test, on approaching a roundabout you should always take the nearside lane UNLESS you're overtaking or turning right.

I think the main problem with the standard of driving these days are the amount of illegal driving schools. There must be thousands in the UK. I live in a small rural town now after living in various locations around the UK and there's not one properly licensed driving school here, but about half a dozen illegal ones.

All driving school cars should display the green DSA (Driving Standards Authority) badge in the windscreen, and ADI (approved driving instructor) plus advanced motorist would be recommended. How many do you see? Apart from the big companies like BSM and RED, AA etc I can't think of many. The usual driving school car just says Fred Blogs on an illuminated sign that can be bought and stuck on the roof and sometimes some stick on lettering, enabling the driver to charge people to use his car while he tells them how to drive his way.

It's no wonder there's so many accidents, near accidents and the standard of driving these days is appalling. The police do nothing as they say there's too much paperwork to make it feasible to book these rookie driving schools, so they get away with it.

So in the light of so many illegal driving schools, thousands if not millions of drivers passing their tests without being taught properly, then one should have eyes in the back of ones head and anywhere else to look out for these drivers and have the mind set that all other drivers are idiots. You should then avoid having an accident.

[Georgeand Ade]

If approaching a roundabout in the second or middle lane,you should drive through the roundabout and "enter" your "exit" road in the middle or outside lane.
Only then if its safe to do so,should you then move over to the "inside"lane.
How many time have I seen drivers approach roundabout in the middle lane and then cut across to the "inside"or "nearside" lane when exiting the roundabout.

[Beelzebub]

Originally Posted by mrsflump

I'm an advanced motorist, been driving almost 40yrs now and taught for a while and touch wood have never had an accident.

Unless it's changed since I took my test and advanced test, on approaching a roundabout you should always take the nearside lane UNLESS you're overtaking or turning right.

I think the main problem with the standard of driving these days are the amount of illegal driving schools. There must be thousands in the UK. I live in a small rural town now after living in various locations around the UK and there's not one properly licensed driving school here, but about half a dozen illegal ones.

All driving school cars should display the green DSA (Driving Standards Authority) badge in the windscreen, and ADI (approved driving instructor) plus advanced motorist would be recommended. How many do you see? Apart from the big companies like BSM and RED, AA etc I can't think of many. The usual driving school car just says Fred Blogs on an illuminated sign that can be bought and stuck on the roof and sometimes some stick on lettering, enabling the driver to charge people to use his car while he tells them how to drive his way.

It's no wonder there's so many accidents, near accidents and the standard of driving these days is appalling. The police do nothing as they say there's too much paperwork to make it feasible to book these rookie driving schools, so they get away with it.

So in the light of so many illegal driving schools, thousands if not millions of drivers passing their tests without being taught properly, then one should have eyes in the back of ones head and anywhere else to look out for these drivers and have the mind set that all other drivers are idiots. You should then avoid having an accident.

1. Things may indeed have changed since you passed your test - signs or lane markings may tell you to take another lane (Highway Code 185-7). And in any case you shouldn't be overtaking on the approach to a roundabout (HC 167).

2. As well as the green ADI badge, driving instructors can also operate quite legally with the pink PDI badge. I've no doubt there are some illegal instructors, but I can't believe there are many. In my time as an instructor I've spotted exactly one (and I do look!), and when I reported it to the DSA they took action. The 'phone number for their Fraud & Integrity Team is 029 2058 1155 or e-mail at [email protected]

3. If people are not being taught properly by these illegal instructors, how are they passing the test?

[wagolynn]

Passing the test is not that difficult Beelzebub. Legal or not, I think the problem is due to pupils being taught to pass the test rather than how to drive.

[Beelzebub]

Originally Posted by wagolynn

Passing the test is not that difficult Beelzebub. Legal or not, I think the problem is due to pupils being taught to pass the test rather than how to drive.

Sorry to disagree Wagolynn, but "pupils being taught to pass the test" is a common and baseless allegation, most notably coming recently from the current transport minister (whose entire research on the subject seems to have consisted of a conversation with his teenage daughter.)

Some thoughts:

- If passing the test doesn't equip you to drive, then isn't it the test that's at fault, rather than the training?

- Most responsible instructors do try to cover the subjects which the test can't or doesn't cover, e.g. night driving. We are currently prevented by law from teaching pupils on the motorway, and to his credit the same minister is trying to change that.

- If every driver continued to drive at test standard, and followed the Highway Code, the roads would (by definition) be considerably safer. My (admittedly unscientific) observation is that I see more much more bad driving from the "mature" population than from the youngsters.

- All the evidence I've ever seen suggests that our test is in fact very effective - our roads are the safest in the world. I agree the test isn't very difficult, and it would be easy to make it much harder, but that would make it more expensive. No politician is going to propose that, unless there is strong evidence to suggest that there would be a great improvement in road safety.

End of rant!

[wagolynn]

Originally Posted by Beelzebub

- If passing the test doesn't equip you to drive, then isn't it the test that's at fault, rather than the training?

I would not argue with that. I wonder why the youngsters are statistically more likely to have a crash.

[Beelzebub]

Originally Posted by wagolynn

I would not argue with that. I wonder why the youngsters are statistically more likely to have a crash.

3-4 years ago the DSA carried out a huge, expensive (and ultimately rather pointless) consultation process to address the problem of the shockingly high accident rate among new (rather than necessarily young) drivers.

One of their research findings was that the problem was largely one of attitude, rather than any deficiency in skill. There were some tentative proposals for some form of attitude testing, which came to nothing.

[smudger]

Its a bit like that survey that scientists were asked by the government to carry out, as to why traffic comes to a crawl on our motorways. After they had spent millions of pounds and thousands of man and computer hours, they came up with...........nothing! :confused:;)

[wagolynn]

Originally Posted by Beelzebub

3-4 years ago the DSA carried out a huge, expensive (and ultimately rather pointless) consultation process to address the problem of the shockingly high accident rate among new (rather than necessarily young) drivers.

One of their research findings was that the problem was largely one of attitude, rather than any deficiency in skill. There were some tentative proposals for some form of attitude testing, which came to nothing.

I used to live near a disused airfield, my first step in teaching kids to drive was to take them there and let them get vehicle control (gears, clutch, braking etc.) out of the way. Step 2 was to deal with any 'attitude' they were encouraged to go a bit wild using their new found skills, of course, they quickly soiled their underwear, I would then debrief them (not literally). Once they had had the experience of an out of control vehicle they had no urge to try that again. At this point they were ready to try the road and traffic. Towards the end of their training, I would teach them a little higher speed driving but they had to demonstrate what they were doing/thinking by giving a commentary. As far as training sensible drivers, this appeared to work. This was years before written exams, when the Highway Code was a useful tool for driving.

[smudger]

We used to live near a disused air filed which would have been great for that sort of thing. But just as folk started to use it for learning to drive and so on, the council built big concrete barriers to stop vehicles getting on to it?

Which was totally daft, as the youngsters have nowhere to go now, it would be ideal for their 4 wheeled trike's and the like, and keep them off the public roads, but the council knows best????????:confused:

[mick.n]

Originally Posted by smudger

]We used to live near a disused air filed which would have been great for that sort of thing. ]

Aye, when i was an apprentice diesel fitter in the early 70's & first started learning to drive, my father used to take me to a disused airfield just around the corner from where we worked in the dinner break to teach me the basics.

Perfect place to learn the basic stuff. ;)

[Dennis W]

There is a roundabout near me in which there are two exits very close together. some motorists indicate too soon and it gives the impression they are going to take the first exit, when in fact they are indicating too early for them to take the second exit.

[smudger]

Aye! that's why roundabouts and junctions are the main spots for accidents, we need to be far more alert when driving on them.

[wagolynn]

Originally Posted by Dennis W

There is a roundabout near me in which there are two exits very close together. some motorists indicate too soon and it gives the impression they are going to take the first exit, when in fact they are indicating too early for them to take the second exit.

Moral here is, never rely on an indicators, always look for confirmation e.g. what is the vehicle actually doing.

[Rich1686]

In January i was on a roundabout in the correct lane on the approach. I went onto the roundabout and went into the outer land to go passed a car that was slow turning off. After going passed the car i mirror signalled to go back into my lane to go off of my exit. There was on car there when i started to go in and the Car crash avoidance technology also did not show a car there. A car came up on the inside of me and hit the wheel of my car and did damage. I have now been told that is was my fault as it is ok on a roundabout to undertake is this correct?